13 Nov 11月 13日 电
Posted by Sam Jackson as张贴由Sam杰克逊 Admissions 招生 , , College 学院 , , Teenagers 青少年
This is a ‘part 1′ because this is a very big very thorny issue which concerns affirmative action and much more .这是一个'的一部分, 1 ' ,因为这是一个非常大的非常棘手的问题,关注的肯定行动和更多的工作 。 As such I will in the near future be writing a ‘part 2′ which directly addresses any AA-related concerns I’m having about this topic here… but for now, my understanding of the issue:这样,我会在不久的将来,写'的一部分, 2 ' ,其中直接涉及任何机管局有关的问题我在有关此主题在这里… …但现在,我所理解的问题:
Pulitzer prize winner普立兹奖得主 Daniel Golden wrote a piece about “whether elite colleges give Asian-American students a fair shake” in last Saturday’s Wall Street Journal.丹尼尔黄金写了一块约“是否名牌大学给了亚洲和美国的学生一个公平的动摇”在上周六的华尔街日报。 It focused specifically on the case of one Jian Li, a Chinese permanent legal resident who went to a NJ public school having emigrated at age 4.它的重点是专门就案件之一,李健,中国常驻的合法居民,谁去了新泽西州公立学校后,移民在4岁。 Mr. Li recently filed a complaint against Princeton University for rejecting him through the Dept. Education’s Office for Civil Rights; he is currently a freshman at Yale.李先生最近提交了一份投诉,普林斯顿大学的拒绝,他通过研究教育办公室的公民权利,他目前是一年级在耶鲁。 (nb, this is not a tort case, it is a complaint about what Li feels was discrimination.) (注意,这不是一个民事侵权案件,这是一个投诉什么李觉得是歧视) 。
This is an issue that throws a lot of people off sometimes, because some people confuse a) Affirmative action with b) race-based discrimination.这是一个问题抛出一个很多人的小康,有时,因为有些人混淆一)平权行动与二)基于种族的歧视。 Private universities in the United States are not required to have the same ‘objective’ qualifications that businesses or real estate have; race discrimination is only happening if there a pattern (in this case acceptance / rejection) unique to one race or ethnicity on the basis of unfair (nonstandard) comparisons–hence the problem with Berkeley’s law program back in the early 90s, which took Asians out of the general pool and compared them against each other.私立大学在美国是不须有相同的'客观'资格的企业或房地产有;种族歧视,只是发生的事情,如果有一个模式(在这种情况下接受/拒绝)独特的一个种族或民族的基础上不公平的(非标准)比较-因此,问题与大学柏克莱分校的法律程式,早在90年代初,这是亚洲人摆脱一般游泳池和比较,他们对对方。
A quote from the article to start us off here:引用的文章开始我们小康的位置:
The Office for Civil Rights initially rejected Mr. Li’s complaint due to “insufficient” evidence.办公室的公民权利最初拒绝了李先生的投诉,由于“不足”的证据。 Mr. Li appealed, citing a white high-school classmate admitted to Princeton despite lower test scores and grades.李先生呼吁为由,白色的高校的同班同学承认,普林斯顿,尽管较低的测验分数及职系。 The office notified him late last month that it would look into the case.办公室通知他上个月底,它将研究的情况。
His complaint seeks to suspend federal financial assistance to Princeton until the university “discontinues discrimination against Asian-Americans in all forms by eliminating race preferences, legacy preferences, and athlete preferences.” Legacy preference is the edge most elite colleges, including Princeton, give to alumni children.他的投诉,旨在暂停联邦财政援助,以普林斯顿大学,直到大学“终止歧视亚裔美国人在一切形式消除种族偏好,传统的偏好,和运动员偏好” 。遗留下来的偏好是最边缘的精英学院,包括普林斯顿大学,给校友子女。 The Office for Civil Rights has the power to terminate such financial aid but usually works with colleges to resolve cases rather than taking enforcement action.办公室的公民权利有权力终止这种财政援助,但通常与工程学院,以解决个案,而非采取执法行动。
That more or less sets the stage, but doesn’t answer my biggest question about Mr. Li’s claims: Jian Li had a 2400 SAT I and excellent SAT IIs, but what else was there?更多或更少集阶段,但不回答我的最大的问题约李官奇的索赔:李健了2400年星期六,我和良好的星期六的非法入境者,但还有什么是有? He had good grades, so he was clearly academically qualified.他曾好成绩,因此他显然是学历。 Yet how else does he compare to this white applicant from his school that was accepted?然而,否则,如何,他是否比较这份白皮书申请人从他的学校,这是接受呢? Reading about this story, I just want more facts, and I can’t seem to find them anywhere.阅读关于这个故事,我只想更多的事实,我似乎无法找到它们的任何地方。 While considering the subjective criteria that Princeton and other elite US schools use to gauge applicants, numbers alone are not enough to form a complete comparison.同时,考虑到主观的标准,普林斯顿大学和其他精英,美国学校使用,以了解申请人的,数字本身是不够的,以形成一个完整的比较。
Next question: Why did Li sue Princeton, rather than Penn, Stanford, MIT, or Harvard, all of which rejected him (unfairly, he felt) after wait listing him?接下来的问题:为什么李控告普林斯顿,而非西恩潘,斯坦福大学,麻省理工学院或哈佛大学,所有这些拒绝他(不公平,他认为)后,等待上市的他呢?
“He ultimately focused his complaint against Princeton after reading a 2004 study by three Princeton researchers concluding that an Asian-American applicant needed to score 50 points higher on the SAT than other applicants to have the same chance of admission to an elite university.” “他最终的重点是他的投诉后,普林斯顿大学读2004年的一项研究是由三普林斯顿的研究人员得出结论认为,一个亚洲和美国的申请人需要评分50分的较高的SAT考试比其他申请人有相同的机会入学的精英大学” 。
I’ve read that study; it’sa perfectly good study, but it doesn’t negate the fact that at the ‘top-tier’ American schools stats are not the only thing being considered.我已阅读研究;这是绝对良好的学习,但这并不否定事实,即在'顶级'美国学校的统计是不是唯一的事,正在考虑中。 This is why when affirmative action is banned in some public institutions, notably the University of California (which we have data for) the Asian-American enrollment goes up–these schools rely on stats alone much more than do these top schools.这就是为什么当扶持行动是禁止在一些公共机构,特别是美国加州大学(我们的数据)亚洲和美国的报名上升-这些学校的依赖于统计,仅远不止这些顶尖学校。
So, here is what it looks like to me, at first glance: Li has a 2400 SAT and great stats overall, and is waitlisted at then rejected by lots of good schools before two also very great schools accept him (Yale and Caltech). 所以,这里是什么,它看起来像对我来说,乍看之下:李有2400星期六和伟大的统计总体而言,是在轮候,然后拒绝了很多好学校之前,双方还非常大学校接受他(耶鲁大学和加州理工学院) 。 What happens next I don’t understand.接下来该怎么做我不明白。 HYPSM are known to reject plenty of perfect scorers–where exactly the basis for discrimination comes in I don’t understand, because these schools do not operate on the basis of stats alone. hypsm是众所周知的拒绝很多完美的分手,哪里正是歧视的基础是在我不明白,因为这些学校没有的基础上运作的统计,单。 They care about extracurricular and leadership and all these things.他们关心的课外活动和领导以及所有这些东西。 I can see a plausible concern in general, but not one stemming from his case alone.我可以看到一个可能的关注,在一般,但没有一个源于他的案件。
“Ah,” you say, “they do care about those things, but perhaps they just use them as an excuse or subjective ‘reason’ to reject those applicants they feel are undesirable in too great a quantity–perhaps Asians are now in the same position that Jews once were!” “啊, ”你说, “他们所关心的那些事情,但也许他们只是利用他们作为借口,或主观的'理由 ' 拒绝的申请人,他们觉得是不可取的 ,在过大的数量,也许亚洲人现在在相同的犹太人的立场,即一旦被“ ! See again Malcomb Gladwell’s old piece in the New Yorker见再次malcomb格莱德威尔的旧片,在新的纽约客 on modern elite college admissions which alludes back to Jerome Karabel’s The Chosen (I keep plugging that book because it keeps being good!).对现代精英大学招生,其中提到了回杰罗姆卡拉伯的选择(我一直堵这本书,因为它一直被好! ) 。 We had an assembly speaker who brought this up when discussing bias in objective hiring–people find “excuses” to hire one candidate (towards the bias, ie Caucasian) regardless of whether that particular ‘excuse’ was being sought after in the applicant process (ie, experience, or skill, or whatever difference can be found between the two candidates).我们有一个议会议长谁带来了这个时候讨论的偏见,在客观租用-人民找到“借口”聘请一名候选人(对偏见,即白人)不论该特别是'借口'正在寻求后,在申请人的进程(即,经验或技能,或什么差异,可以发现两者之间候选人) 。 But…但…
Not necessarily.不一定。 Show me proof–show me the memos and letters we have from old college presidents and admissions folks saying that there were too many Jews enrolling–show me that for Asian-Americans.显示我证明给我看备忘录和信件,我们从旧的大学校长和招生的乡亲说,有太多的犹太人招生-查看我说,为亚裔美国人。 I don’t have the evidence of a technical, legal discrimination–though I am happy to see there are sort of inquiries being made about it.我手边没有证据的技术,法律上的歧视-虽然我很高兴看到有排序的调查正在取得它。
However, this really only scratches the surface, because this is only looking at the purest facts I could find about the issue.不过,这真的只有刮痕,表面上,因为这是只有看精纯的事实,我可以找到有关的问题。 There is a bigger issue–the social ramifications of this question, and how Mr. Li’s complaint jives with other proposals, initiatives, lobbying groups and so forth.有一个更大的问题的社会后果,这个问题,以及如何李先生的投诉jives与其他的建议,倡议,游说团体,等等。 The internet is互联网 buzzing热闹 about this article, actually.有关这篇专题文章的,其实。 I’ll be writing more about it, but I was just trying to skirt the ‘AA good / bad’ question in this post and just talk about whether or not I thought Li necessarily had a case here.我会写更多地了解它,但我只是想穿裙子的'机管局好/坏'的问题,在这个职位和公正的谈论是否或不是,我以为李一定有一个案件在这里。 As an African American Jew, I think I have a slightly different perspective on this matter than Mr. Li or some of my peers.作为一个非洲裔美国犹太人,我觉得我有一个略有不同的角度来看这件事比李先生或我的一些同侪。 You’ll just have to wait a little bit to hear it…您只需要等待一点点听到…
24 Responses 24日的反应
steve 史蒂夫
November 13th, 2006 at 7:17 pm 2006年11月13日在下午7点17分
1 1Sam,三,
The WSJ article doesn’t go into enough detail to determine the merits of Li’s case, as you point out.在华尔街日报的文章并没有进入不够详细,以确定的优点,李的情况下,正如你指出。
But the question of whether there is systematic discrimination against Asians at elite universities is not really in doubt.但问题是是否有系统地歧视亚洲人在精英大学是不是真的令人怀疑。 See the article below, and the quote from a former Stanford admissions officer about an internal study there.看到下面的文章,并引述一位前斯坦福大学招生人员对内部研究。 Note the applicants compared were (a) all unhooked and (b) comparable of *both* academic and leadership criteria.注意:申请人相比,分别为: (一)所有unhooked及( b )可比*都*学术和领导准则。 I doubt things are any different at Princeton.我怀疑的东西,是任何不同的普林斯顿。
http://insidehighered.com/news/2006/10/10/asian
Reider said he thought the article and the question of “Too Asian?” that it posed was “shameful” and said that he was “embarrassed” as an American that such a piece would appear today. reider表示,他认为文章和问题“太亚洲? ” ,它带来的是“可耻” ,并说他是“尴尬”作为一个美国人,这样的作品会出现在今天。 He asked whether anyone would think of publishing an article called “Too Latino?” and compared the bias to the kind of bigotry that for decades limited the enrollment of Jewish students at top private universities.他询问,是否有人会认为出版一篇文章,所谓的“太拉丁裔? ” ,并比较了偏见,向种偏执的认为,几十年来,有限的招生的犹太学生在顶端的私立大学。 “This is a racist question,” he said. “这是一个种族主义的问题, ”他说。
He also said that the bias is real — and cited his experience in his previous job as part of the admissions office at Stanford University.他还表示,偏见是真实的-并引述他的经验在他以前工作的一部分,该招生办公室在斯坦福大学。 There, he said, the office did a study some years ago in which it compared Asian and white applicants with the same overall academic and leadership rankings.在那里,他说,该办公室做了一些研究,多年前在它相比,亚洲和白色的申请人,同时整体的学术和领导的排名。 The study was only of “unhooked kids,” meaning those with no extra help for being an alumni child or an athlete.这项研究只是“ unhooked孩子” ,也就是说那些没有额外的帮助,被一校友子女或运动员。 The study found that comparably qualified white applicants were “significantly” more likely to be admitted than their Asian counterparts.研究发现,相对合格的白色申请者“明显”更容易被承认,比他们的亚洲同行。
steve 史蒂夫
November 13th, 2006 at 7:34 pm 2006年11月13日在下午7点34分
2 2Oops, “comparable of” should be “comparable in” …糟糕, “可比”应该是“可比在” … …
To do a reasonable study of this type (which I assume the Stanford people are capable of), one would group together applicants who are comparable according to the overall admission criteria (grades, scores, activities, etc.) and look for the effect (perhaps subconscious!) of ethnicity on the outcome.做一个合理的研究,这种类型的(我担任斯坦福人民有能力) ,一组将共同申请人谁是可比根据整体收生准则(等级,分数,活动等) ,并寻找影响(也许潜意识! )种族的研究结果。
According to the tables you link to in a previous post, only about 240 students per year in the entire country obtain a 2400 SAT I score.根据该表,你链接到在一个先前的文章中,只有约240学生,每年在整个国家取得2400坐在i评分。 So, Li is a pretty exceptional kid.因此,李是一个相当特殊的孩子。 There are not *that* many perfect-scorers for the elite schools to reject有没有* *很多完美的得分为名校拒绝
Sam Jackson 山姆杰克逊
November 13th, 2006 at 9:07 pm 2006年11月13日在下午9点07分
3 3He had only 237 friends up there at 2400, that’s true.他只是237的朋友在那里,在2400年,这是真的。 All the same, SAT Is are only useful to a point–there are plenty of studies about testing “ranges” per individual student, and that degree of variance per sitting has only gone up with the addition of the writing, making scores less useful in one respect.所有相同,周六是只有有用的一个点有很多的研究,有关测试“范围”每个别学生,而且程度的差异,每次聆讯只上升加上写作,使分数用处不大,在一,尊重。 Above a certain point–well below 2400–more points are really just going to be bringing up a school’s ranking average, and not saying very much about a kid.上述的某一个点,远低于2400年,更点真的只是要造就一所学校的排名平均水平,并不是说十分左右孩子。 At least, that’s what I hope–because I know plenty of people with scores lower than Li, lower than mine, who are just as smart.至少,这就是我希望-因为我知道很多人与分数低于李,低于矿山,谁都是一样的智能。
My problem with the comparison to the situation faced by Jews–the one which PRECEDED the development of our subjective admissions, meant to keep Jews out– is that the selection criteria at that time were different than they were now, significantly.我的问题与比较,面临的形势,犹太人-其中前面的发展,我们的主观招生,这意味着保持犹太人地地道道的是,甄选准则在不同的时间,比他们现在,显着。 It makes the analogy feel slightly flawed, vaguely incomplete.它使这个比喻,觉得稍微有瑕疵,隐约不完整。 I’m going to try to address it in part 2 so I can’t spoil my logic by giving it away early, but!我要去尝试,以解决它在第2部分,所以我不能破坏我的逻辑使它远离早,但! : ) : )
It’s Reider’s commentary, moreso than Golden’s tiptoeing, that I’m looking for (I’d forgotten about that piece… October seems so long ago).它的reider的评论,更何况比黄金的tiptoeing ,我在找(我要忘记这块… 10月,似乎不久前) 。 I want some hard evidence, I want the office of civil rights to turn up some juicy stuff.我想一些确凿证据,我想办公室的公民权利,把一些多汁的东西。 I’ll do some snooping tomorrow.我会做一些窥探的明天。
thanks so much for commenting and reading!感谢这么多评论和阅读! (Everyone besides steve: you should go read steve’s blog, and subscribe to it just like me, because it is very cool) (大家除了史蒂夫:你应该去阅读史蒂夫的博客,订阅它和我一样,因为它是非常酷)
steve 史蒂夫
November 13th, 2006 at 9:50 pm 2006年11月13日在下午9点50分
4 4Sam,三,
You are definitely right that any discrimination against Asians today pales in comparison to what Jews had to face earlier in the 20th century.你是绝对的权利,任何歧视亚洲人今天黯然失色,在比较什么犹太人不得不面对早些时候,在20世纪。
I would not be surprised if almost all of the anti-Asian effect is from subconscious stereotyping on the part of admissions people, or unintended consequences of other policies.我不会感到惊讶,如果几乎所有的反亚裔的影响是从潜意识的定型对部分招生的人,或意想不到的后果的其他政策。
You are also correct that the SAT probably has limited ability to differentiate between students at the high end.你也正确的SAT考试,可能有能力有限,区分学生在高端。
It will be very interesting to see what the Li cases dredges up!那将是非常有趣的,看看有什么李案件耙了!
Sam Jackson 山姆杰克逊
November 14th, 2006 at 2:18 pm 2006年11月14日在下午2时18分
5 5One particularly ugly thing it seems to be dredging up right now is stereotypes… as evidenced by the conversation online in some places.一,特别是丑陋的事,它似乎是疏浚起来的权利,现在是刻板印象…证明了该会话在线在一些地方。 See: College Confidential->见:高校机密“ -> http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=260420
just gets nasty in some places.刚刚获得恶劣,在有些地方。
Sandy 沙质
November 14th, 2006 at 3:01 pm 2006年11月14日在下午3时01分
6 6Frankly, the whole issue of affirmative action leave me cold.坦白说,整个问题的扶持行动留下我冷战。 I certainly do understand some preference being given for gender equality and geographic preferences.当然,我也明白一些偏好正在考虑两性平等和地理的喜好。 I can even understand Legacy preferences in order to raise more money from alumni.我什至可以理解的遗产偏好,以提高更多的钱从校友。 However, I can’t understand any preference or discrimination based on race.不过,我实在不明白任何偏好或歧视是基于种族。
As you note Sam, this certainly seems to be similar to what Jews experienced post WWII.正如你注意到心,这当然似乎是类似什么犹太人经历了二次大战后。
Yes, there is no explicit evidence such as emails and letters that Asians are being discriminated against because of their high number of qualified applicants.是的,有没有明确的证据,如电子邮件和信件,亚洲人是受到歧视,因为他们的高数量的合格申请人。 However, if one reviews the applicant pool at most top tier colleges and looks at the stats for those admitted, I would bet that for most top schools, Asians have to have better credentials than non-Asians.但是,如果一评语申请人池最顶级高校,并期待在统计那些承认,我会投注为最顶尖学校,亚洲人必须有更好的全权证书比非亚洲人。 The Princeton study also reinforces this argument.普林斯顿的研究也强化了这个论点。
My problem with any racial profiling for admission is, “where does it end?” If too many qualified Jews or Catholics apply, should there be a plateau for them?我的问题与任何种族貌相入学的是, “哪里结束? ”如果有太多合格的犹太人或天主教徒申请,应该有一个高原为他们呢? Frankly, I think that using race in any way for admission opens a “Pandora’s Box” that I don’t think we, as a country want to have.坦白说,我认为,使用种族以任何方式入学打开了“潘多拉的盒子”我不认为我们,作为一个国家希望能有。 It is also creating a major backlash in this country, which is why whenever there was a constitutional mandate to prohibit AA in State Schools, the mandate easily passed by the voters even with lower funding then provided by the pro-affirmative action folks.这亦是创造一个重大反弹,在这个国家,这就是为什么每当有一个宪法规定,禁止机管局在国家的学校,任务很容易通过的选民,甚至较低的资金,然后提供亲的平权行动的乡亲。
I think it is time to end any affirmative action based on race.我认为这是时间去年底,平权行动的任何基于种族。 This includes racial preferences and includes eliminating higher plateaus for Asians.这包括种族偏好,并包括消除较高的高原为亚洲人。
Sam Jackson 山姆杰克逊
November 14th, 2006 at 3:26 pm 2006年11月14日在下午3时26分
7 7Diversity for gender sprang up at these elite institutions on one basis, first and foremost–”good boys” didn’t want to go to a single-sex school.多样性的性别兴起,在这些精英机构对1的基础上,首要的- “好男孩”不想去一个单一性别的学校。 Valiant claims of equality were secondary, largely.英勇的要求平等的中学,主要是。 For race, it was a slightly different matter.为种族,这是一个略有不同的事。 At the same time, there IS a genuine basis for race-based affirmative action–teams do better and accomplish more when the group is more diverse, both gender-wise and racially.在同一时间内,有一个真正的基础,基于种族平权行动-队做得更好,完成更多的时,该集团是更多元化,无论性别和种族明智的。 Having more perspectives available translates into a greater pool of ideas–something with obvious value for higher education.有更多的角度,可转化为更大的池的想法-一些有明显价值的高等教育。
Personally, even if I ‘understand’ the purported rationale behind legacy / development admissions standards / practices, I resent it in a way I don’t affirmative action–not just because I won’t benefit in any way from legacy / development, because obviously I will wherever I go in the sense of lovely buildings and new research centers funded by donations.我个人来说,即使我'明白'的本意是背后的理据的遗产/发展的入学标准/做法,我反感,它在一种方法,我不肯定的行动不仅是因为我会不利于以任何方式从传统/发展,因为很明显,我将在何处我在意识可爱的建筑物和新的研究中心资助的捐款。 The race for ever-huger endowments at the top (see: stanford’s 4.5 billion capital campaign) is just disturbing.比赛越来越庞大的天赋在最上方(见:斯坦福的45.0亿资本运动) ,只是令人不安。 Offer FA for the poor, sure–get that socioeconomic diversity, that’s important too.提供发为穷人,肯定得说,社会经济的多样性,认为重要的。 The middle class gets squeezed there, unfortunately (that’s me!).中产阶层得到挤在那里,很可惜(这就是我! ) 。 But I care more about who is working with me in the lab–that it’sa diverse group–than whether or not the equipment is the absolute cutting edge.但我更关心谁是工作与我在实验室认为,这是不同的组比,不论该设备是绝对的尖端。 For research universities, it’s too easy to lose sight of that.为研究型大学,它的太容易忽略了这一点。 But again, I think ideas come from people, and though having good toys and tools to enable their work is important, it is less important than that diversity.但同样地,我觉得思路来自人民,虽然具有良好的玩具和工具,使他们的工作是重要的是,它是那么重要,比多样性。
But, ah, that’s just a snapshot of some of my feelings–sorry to rant a little bit.但是,啊,这只是一个快照,我的一些感受-抱歉, rant一点点。 I was trying to paraphrase a nice assembly speaker we had a few weeks ago, a microbiologist from U Wisconsin… I have to look up her name again, I wasn’t able to find it last night when I was looking.我是试图段一尼斯议长我们曾在数星期前,微生物学家铀威斯康星州… …我要看看了她的名字,我再次无法找到它,昨晚当我一直在寻找。 She was talking about the value of diversity as demonstrated in controlled studies of workplaces, so forth.她谈论的价值的多样性表明,在对照研究的工作场所,等等。 I think the same is true for learning environments, though I don’t know if there is raw data to back that up.我认为也是一样的学习环境,虽然我不知道是否有原始数据的备份,直至。 It’s still a working environment, even if it is learning, so…它的仍是一个工作环境,即使是学习,所以…
The reason many of these mandates pass sometimes, I think, is that AA tends to put minorities above majorities… and so when you have everyone vote, those majorities are going to be flexing their muscles and if they have short-term goals in mind (I want to get me / my son into college) well, we see what happens.原因有很多,这些任务通过有时候,我觉得这是机管局往往把少数人以上的多数… …并因此,当你有大家投票,这些多数是要收缩其肌肉及如果他们有短期目标,在铭记(我想取得我/我的儿子进入大学) ,我们看看会发生什么情况。 That being said in the context of state schools AA is less… less reasonable sometimes, because it is translated into quantifiable characteristics–ie, you’re black, you get x Admissions points, you’re white, -20, so forth.说了这番话语境中的国立学校,机管局是少…少合理的,有时,因为它是转化为可以量化的特色-即,您的黑色,您可以获得x招生点,您白, -20 ,等等。 At least, that’s how it appears sometimes, and I don’t know that that is exactly in tune with the philosophy of AA as I like to imagine it.至少,这就是它如何出现,有时,我不知道,这正是在调与哲学,机管局作为我最喜爱的想象。
BUT all this for another post.但是,这一切都为另一职位。 Man.男人。 I should write it faster, I guess.我应该将它写快,我猜想。
Sandy 沙质
November 14th, 2006 at 4:09 pm 2006年11月14日在下午4时09分
8 8Sam notes, “But I care more about who is working with me in the lab–that it’sa diverse group–than whether or not the equipment is the absolute cutting edge.”萨姆指出, “但我更关心谁是工作与我在实验室认为,这是不同的组比,不论该设备是绝对的前沿” 。
Response: I am surprised that you feel this way.回应:我觉得很奇怪,你觉得这种方式。 I would take cutting edge, top equipment over mediocre equipment ANYTIME over having a lot of other “diverse” researchers on the team.我想借此尖端,顶端的设备超过平庸的设备,随时超过拥有大量其他“多样”的研究人员对团队。
Your attitude is astounding.你的态度是令人惊叹。
I can honestly say that I know of no parent that says to themselves,”I like this school for my kids because it is so diverse.” Maybe among African American parents the thought process is very different from what I think.我可以诚实地说我所知,从来没有家长表示,说自己, “我喜欢这所学校为我的孩子,因为它是如此多样化, ”也许,其中非裔美国人的父母思想的过程中是非常不同的从我的想法。
Bottom line: I want my kids to have access to the best, cutting edge equipment and best research professors around.底线:我想我的孩子能够获得最好的,尖端的设备和最好的研究教授。 If there is a diverse student body, fine;however, it will have no effect on my or my kid’s college decision process.如果有一个多元化的学生团体,并处以罚金;不过,将不会影响我或我的孩子的高校决策过程。
Sam Jackson 山姆杰克逊
November 14th, 2006 at 6:17 pm 2006年11月14日在下午6时17分
9 9Sandy, I have to disagree with you.沙地,我不同意你。 I’m not saying I would necessarily take “mediocre” equipment… obviously the hypothetical is necessarily unspecific, I’m afraid.我不是说我一定会采取“平庸”设备…很明显,假设一定是具体,我很害怕。 I’m biracial, mind you–african american and jewish–so it isn’t just that I have “african american parents” if you were inferring that.我biracial ,铭记您的非裔美国人和犹太人,所以这不仅是我“非洲裔美国人的父母: ”如果你被推断。 Perhaps being biracial has made me more open minded even than some people just exposed to one ethnic group at home, I could not say.也许正biracial令我更开放的态度,甚至比有些人恰恰暴露了一个族群在家里,我不能说。
But when I am looking at schools, diversity is of course an issue.但是,当我期待在学校,多样性,这当然是一个问题。 However, these days, most places do a pretty good job attracting diverse student bodies–at the least, the very elite schools do an excellent job, though they continue to work to make it better.不过,这些天来,大部分地方做一个不错的工作,吸引多元化的学生团体-在最低限度,很名校做了出色的工作,虽然他们继续努力,以使其更臻完美。
A lab was also perhaps not the best of examples, as much science, math, tech is color blind (in the material, that is). 1劳顾会,也可能不是一个最好的例子,多科学,数学,技术,是彩色的盲(在物质,即是) 。 However, from my own experience, there is a marked difference when I am discussing certain topics with a group of either a) nearly homogeneous people or b) a more diverse group.不过,从我自己的经验,是有显着差异,当我讨论某些议题,与一组要么一)近均匀人或b )一个更多元化的集团。
Do you not value diversity beyond gender?你不多样性的价值超越性别? I mean, gender is one thing right there–but so are economic means (bringing in poorer people, particularly) and ethnicity.我的意思是,性别是一件事的权利,有-但都是经济手段(实现在较穷的人,尤其是)和种族。 I know that when you are running a spectrometer it doesn’t matter who your lab partner is in terms of what you are going to get, and if a white or an asian person is looking through a microscope they’re going to be getting the same image, but there’s more to learning and research than just the data.我知道当您正在运行谱仪,它并不不论是谁,您的劳顾会是在合作伙伴的条件是什么你要得到,如果白色或亚洲的人是通过看显微镜,他们要去获得该同样的形象,而且有更多的学习和研究的不仅仅是数据。 Problem-solving across disciplines is improved by having a more diverse team–and modern sciences are just that, team work.解决问题的跨学科,是改善有一个更多元化的团队和现代科学只是,团队工作。 No more lone wolves doing groundbreaking work.没有更多的孤独的狼所做的开创性工作。
I’m not prepared to precisely arrange these priorities–ie, this much diversity is analogous to this much millions of dollars in research funding–but to disregard diversity as a selection factor at all is, I think, DANGEROUSLY closed minded and does not reflect the reality of the world we live in, a world which has many different kinds of people in it.我不准备安排,正是这些优先事项-即,这么多的多样性是类似这么多的数百万美元的研究经费,但是,无视多样性作为一个选择的因素,在所有,我认为是危险的封闭的态度,并不能反映现实,我们生活的世界,一个世界上有许多不同种的人。 If you feel you or your son / daughter would be equally prepared for that world coming from a place where everyone was the same… good luck.如果您觉得您或您的儿子/女儿将同样的准备,世界未来从一个地方,大家是相同的…好运气。 I’ll take my chances with the more interesting more diverse group.我将采取我的机会,与更有趣更多元化的集团。
For similar reasons I’d want to be in or near a big-ish city or something like it (Ithaca, for example, makes up for its smaller size).出于类似的原因我要不想被或附近的一个大原位杂交城市或类似的东西,它(伊萨卡,举例来说,弥补了它的体积小) 。
Sandy 沙质
November 14th, 2006 at 6:52 pm 2006年11月14日在下午6时52分
10 10Sam notes, “Do you not value diversity beyond gender?”萨姆指出, “你不多样性的价值超越性别” ?
Fesponse: No I don’t. fesponse :没有我不会这样做。 I value a meritocracy.My kids had sufficient diversity of many types in high school.我珍惜一meritocracy.my孩子们有足够的多样性,许多不同类型的高中。 They don’t need it shoved down their throats forever.他们不需要它被推下了他们的喉咙永远。
Sam also notes,”–but to disregard diversity as a selection factor at all is, I think, DANGEROUSLY closed minded and does not reflect the reality of the world we live in, a world which has many different kinds of people in it”山姆还注意到, “但无视多样性作为一个选择的因素,在所有,我认为是危险的封闭的态度,并不能反映现实,我们生活的世界,一个世界上有许多不同种的人”
Response: Sam, I am NOT saying that companies and governmnent shouldn’t hire all types of people or that there should be any discrimination.回应:山姆,我不是说公司和governmnent不应该聘请所有类型的人或应该有任何歧视。 I just feel that hiring should be based on merit, and the same should be said of admission to colleges and graduate schools.To me, when a schools or company says they use a “Holistic Approach” to recruiting, this can easily be just an guise for outright discrimination.我只是觉得雇用应基于优异,同时应该说,录取高校和研究生schools.to我,当一个学校或公司说,他们使用一个“全面的方式”来招聘,这可轻易只是一个假借为买断卖断的歧视。 Frankly, I believe that a lot of discrimination does occur under this deception of “holistic approach.” What a great way for bigets to get exactly what they want or don’t want.坦白说,我相信有很多歧视下发生的这欺骗“整体的办法。 ”什么伟大的方式为bigets获得正是他们想要或不想。 Just claim,” we are recruiting based on a holistic approach.”刚刚声称, “我们正在招聘的基础上,全面的方式” 。
However, we can agree to disagree.不过,我们可以同意不同意。
By the way, are you in college now?由的方式,你在大学,现在呢? If so, where?如果是的话,在哪里?
Joseph 约瑟夫。
November 15th, 2006 at 4:06 pm 2006年11月15日在下午4时06分
11 11Sandy’s valuing of gender diversity exclusively smacks of hypocrisy.沙地的重视性别多样性的专门之嫌虚伪。 If indeed her interest is solely directed toward providing her children with the best facilities and opportunities, why does gender become a consideration?如果确实是她的兴趣,纯粹是针对她提供儿童最好的设施和机会,为何不成为一个性别的考虑呢? Sandy may claim that there are institutional barriers to the full participation of women in our society, but that applies at least equally to other groups that suffered from well-documented discriminatory treatment.沙质可能声称有体制性障碍,向妇女的充分参与,在我们的社会,但适用于至少同样与其他群体遭受证据确凿的歧视性待遇。
Beyond egalitarian ideals, diversity has value in the range of perspectives it fosters.超越平等的理想,多样性的价值,在一系列的观点,它促进。 In a global economy, understanding the values and perspectives of different cultures leads to novel approaches and solutions to problems.在全球经济中,价值观的理解和观点不同的文化导致新的方法和解决问题。 From a business perspective it is critical to the development of effective marketing strategies.从商业的角度来看,这是至关重要的发展有效的营销策略。 Japanese automobile industry executives do not use the same marketing strategies and cars that they have in Japan to sell in the US.日本汽车业主管不使用相同的营销策略和汽车,他们已在日本出售在美国的。 They rely on US based personnel and strategies.他们依靠对总部设在美国的人事和战略。 Succeeding globally requires diversity.继全球需要的多样性。 Sandy should let go of the xenophobia, reconsider shunning the Latino kids and give careful thought to studying spanish.沙质应该放手的仇外心理,重新考虑回避拉丁裔的孩子和审慎考虑学习西班牙语。
Sandy 沙质
November 15th, 2006 at 4:20 pm 2006年11月15日在下午4时20分
12 12Joseph, Sandy is a guy!约瑟夫,沙地是一个家伙!
Secondly, I am NOT xenophobic.其次,我不排外。 I am just against any form of discrimination or bias.我只是反对任何形式的歧视或偏见。
Li seems to be playing the world’s smallest violin right now « AdmitSpit 李似乎是公平的世界上最小的小提琴的权利,现在« admitspit
November 20th, 2006 at 8:22 pm 2006年11月20日在下午8时22分
13 13[…] I’ve been following with piqued interest for several days now about this whole Princeton vs. Li upcoming lawsuit ordeal. [ … … ]我一直在以下与piqued利益数天,现在这整个普林斯顿与李即将到来的诉讼折磨。 Fellow blogger, Sam Jackson, provides a great, slightly-lengthy recap of the issue at hand in his post titled, “WSJ asks: ‘Is Admissions Bar Higher for Asians At Elite Schools?’ [part 1]” which I will not rewrite again here; I do recommend reading through it to familiarize yourself with the debate and points of contention.研究员的Blogger ,山姆杰克逊,提供了一个很大的,稍-冗长的扼要重述的问题,另一方面在他的后名为“华尔街日报问道: '是招生酒吧较高,亚洲人在名校? ' [第一部分] ”我不会重写再次在这里我建议读通过它向熟悉自己同分的辩论和争议的焦点。 […] [ … … ]
Li’s playing the world’s smallest violin « AdmitSpit 李的公平世界上最小的小提琴« admitspit
November 21st, 2006 at 12:45 pm 2006年11月21日下午12时45分
14 14[…] I’ve been following with piqued interest for several days now about this whole Princeton vs. Li upcoming lawsuit ordeal. [ … … ]我一直在以下与piqued利益数天,现在这整个普林斯顿与李即将到来的诉讼折磨。 Fellow blogger, Sam Jackson, provides a great, slightly-lengthy recap of the issue at hand in his post titled, “WSJ asks: ‘Is Admissions Bar Higher for Asians At Elite Schools?’ [part 1]” which I will not rewrite again here; I do recommend reading through it to familiarize yourself with the debate and points of contention.研究员的Blogger ,山姆杰克逊,提供了一个很大的,稍-冗长的扼要重述的问题,另一方面在他的后名为“华尔街日报问道: '是招生酒吧较高,亚洲人在名校? ' [第一部分] ”我不会重写再次在这里我建议读通过它向熟悉自己同分的辩论和争议的焦点。 […] [ … … ]
Carolyn 卡罗林
December 3rd, 2006 at 11:58 am 2006年12月3日在上午11时58分
15 15Great discussion here.这里的大讨论。 I have a question that hopefully someone can answer.我有一个问题,说希望有人能回答。 What exactly is meant by merit based admissions?究竟是什么意思,值得基于招生? Does this mean that only test scores are to be considered?这是否意味着,只有考试分数是要考虑的? What other criteria for college admission could/should be considered for merit based admission?什么其他的标准,大学入学可/应考虑优异基于入学?
Sandy 沙质
December 3rd, 2006 at 1:20 pm 2006年12月3日在下午1时20分
16 16Carolyn asks, “what is merit based admission?”卡洛琳问, “什么是值得基于入学” ?
Response: Ideally, merit based admission would occur when an applicant submits the same college application, essays and transcripts but has no indication as to race.回应:理想的,值得基于入学时,会出现一个申请人提交同一学院的应用,散文和誊本,但没有迹象显示,如基于种族。 They would solely note gender and social security number.他们将只注意性别和社会安全号码。 Thus, there would be no picture, name, or racial information or even an interview.因此,不会有任何图片,姓名,或种族的资料,或什至面试。 Thus, colleges can be as holistic as they wish with this information.因此,高校可作为整体,因为他们希望与这方面的资料。
I do admit that there may be some exceptions to this.我承认可能有一些例外。 For example, if a student is an athlete trying to get in under an athletic scholarship, the coach of the applicable sport would have to see and interview the student.例如,如果一个学生是一个运动员,试图在获得下一个体育奖学金,教练所适用的体育会看到和面试学生。
Legacies would be a special case.遗产将是一个特殊的案例。 I do understand the need for private schools to raise donations for schools.我也明白需要为私立学校提高,为学校捐款。 Having some legacy admits might be beneficial.有一些遗留坦承,可能是有益的。 Thus, there should be an option for a student to note whether they are a legacy or not, which would also result in disclosing their name.因此,应该有一个选项,一名学生注意他们是否遗留或不,这也将导致在披露他们的姓名。
Joseph noted that I am being hypocritical in valuing gender diversity over that of other diversity.约瑟夫指出,我正在虚伪在估价性别多样性较其他多样性。 I think not.我想不是。 Having a balance in gender does, in my opinion, greatly aid in the educational process since it has been shown that females learn differently than their male counterparts.有一个平衡的性别是否在我看来,大大的援助,在教育过程中,因为它已经表明,女性有不同的学习比男性同行。 In addition, students have been shown to be much happier and thus provide greater college retention if there is a gender- balanced campus.此外,学生已表明要幸福得多,从而提供更大的大学生保留,如果有一个性别平衡的校园。 Likewise, schools that have very few makes or females tend to have unhappier students (Check out the RIT forums under同样地,学校,很少有制造或女性往往有unhappier学生(请参阅rit论坛下 http://www.studentsreview.com ) )
I can’t say the same for racial diversity.我不能说同样的种族多样性。 In fact, in mosst cases where racial diversity is highly encourage in admission ( such as in Syracuse University), the main complaint is that the races don’t mix.事实上,在mosst的情况下,种族多样性是非常鼓励在入院时(如在锡拉丘兹大学) ,主要投诉的是,比赛不要混淆。 Kids tend to associate with others of like-kind races, which seems to defeat the purpose of racial diversity in college admission.孩子们往往联想到与他人一样,实物比赛,这似乎打败的目的,种族多样性的大学入学。
Carolyn 卡罗林
December 4th, 2006 at 12:31 pm 2006年12月4日在下午12时31分
17 17Hi Sandy,喜沙质,
Thanks for your timely response.感谢您及时的反应。 Sandy I totally disagree with your position that it is ok to consider gender in college admissions but not race.沙质我完全不同意你所在的位置,这是确定考虑到性别,在大学招生,而不是军备竞赛。 Race, socioeconomics, religious affiliation, politics, gender, community involvement, character, etc all play an important role in providing balance to the college experience as well as enhancing it, and should be considered.种族, socioeconomics ,宗教,政治,性别,社区参与,性格等各方面发挥重要作用,提供平衡学院的经验,以及加强它,并应予以考虑。 To only focus on gender is being bias.只注重性别现正偏见。
Promoting racial diversity should not be dismissed simply because some “studies” suggest that students of different races do not mix.促进种族多样性不应被解雇,只是因为一些“研究”表明,学生,不同种族,不要混淆。 Where as it is human nature to want to be with people you are familiar with or comfortable with, it has been my experience that people of different races will and do interact with each other when a common bond is established.那里,因为这是人性要与人您熟悉或舒服,但已根据我的经验认为,不同种族人士的意志和做的互动与对方当一个共同的纽带,是既定的。 This will not happen if they are not given an opportunity to interact either within the classroom or outside of it.这将不会发生,如果他们没有获得机会互动,无论是课堂上或以外。
Ilive in a small town community that has excellent schools. ilive在一个小城镇社会具有优良的学校。 My community is predominently white, and I am African American.我的社区是predominently白色,和我的非裔美国人。 I have two children who have gone through the school system.我有两个孩子谁经过的学校制度。 One has already graduated and the other is a Senior.一人已毕业,和其他是一名资深。 Yes, in general even in high school, there is less mixing of the races.是的,在一般情况,即使在高中,有少的混合比赛。 However the races do interact.不过比赛做互动。 Both my children have friends of different races, and they have developed an awareness and appreciation for people of other races, lifestyles, viewpoints, etc. I think it is unwise to only look at gender and test scores, and not consider other factors such race in promoting diversity.无论我的孩子有很多朋友,不同种族,他们已研制出一种认识和欣赏的人其他种族,生活方式,观点等我觉得这是不明智的,只有看看性别和考试成绩,而不是考虑其他因素,例如种族在提倡多样化。
A school could end up overlooking an applicant who could greatly impact the school and the community.一所学校最终可能忽略了一个申请人谁可以大大的影响,学校和社区。 A prime example of this Cupcake Brown.一个主要的例子,这cupcake布朗。 Cupcake Brown is a high profile San Francisco Attorney who recently wrote a biography titled “A Piece of Cake”. cupcake布朗是一个高姿态旧金山律政司谁最近写传记,名为“一块蛋糕” 。 This is a must read.这是一个必须阅读。 It is an inspiring story of how Cupcake Brown went from being a prostitute, drug addict and gang member to becoming a highly sought after attorney for one of the most prestigious law firms in the country.这是一个鼓舞人心的故事,如何cupcake布朗到从一个妓女,吸毒者和帮派成员,成为一个高度要求后,律师之一,最有声望的律师事务所在该国。 When she applied for law school, her test scores barely made the cut off to even be considered for any law school.当她申请法学院,她的考试成绩勉强作出切断,以,甚至可以考虑为任何法律学校。 Yet, Cupcake ended up graduating at the top of her class and was given the most prestigious award by her law school when she graduated.然而, cupcake结束了毕业,在上方的班上,并给出了最有声望的奖项是由她的法学院当她毕业。 Most law schools turned Cupcake down, and only one accepted her.最法学院拒绝cupcake下来,而其中只有接受了她。 Had the school that accepted her only looked at her test scores, and not considered the “whole” person, she probably would have not been accepted.有学校接受了她只看过她的考试成绩,并没有考虑到“整体”的人,她可能就不会被接受。
One final thing, I value the fact that we are having this discussion. 1最后一件事,我价值的事实,即我们是有这个讨论。 People of different races and backgrounds bring different viewpoints to this discussion.不同种族人士及背景,使不同的观点,这一讨论。 I doubt if this would happen if we all were of the same race and background.我怀疑如果这会发生,如果我们所有的人同一种族和背景。
Sandy 沙质
December 4th, 2006 at 4:05 pm 2006年12月4日在下午4时05分
18 18Carolyn and Sam, do you think that only African Americans have faced discrimination in this country or in the world?卡洛琳和SAM ,你是否认为只有非裔美国人所面临的歧视,在这个国家,或在世界上呢?
Again, I don’t see why skin color should be given any preference.再次,我不明白为什么皮肤颜色应给予任何优惠。 If a kid comes from a successful, wealthy household, why should that kid be given any preference solely because of skin color.如果一个孩子来自一个成功的,富裕的家庭,为什么要这孩子获得任何偏好,纯粹是因为皮肤颜色。 It makes no sense!它是没有意义的!
If, however, you were to argue that economic diversity is needed for colleges, I could buy into that.但是,如果你认为经济多样性是需要的高校,我可以购买到这一点。 I certainly can see the need for a “leg up” for kids from households that are economically deprived REGARDLESS OF RACE, CREED, or RELIGION.当然,我可以看到,需要有一个“站起来”为孩子的家庭在经济上被剥夺,不论种族,信仰,或宗教。 I really don’t understand why economic circumstances aren’t much higher in the piority list among colleges other than knowing that it might require more scholarships.我真不明白,为什么经济情况并不高得多,在piority名单,其中高校以外的其他明知它可能需要更多的奖学金。
Sam Jackson 山姆杰克逊
December 4th, 2006 at 5:18 pm 2006年12月4日在下午5时18分
19 19Economic circumstance is actually one of the top goals of the traditionally “hyper elite” schools these days.经济的情况下,其实是最关心的问题之一的目标,传统的“超级精英”学校,这些天来。 Do you mean doing something besides spending lots of money on financial aid for low income families (eg, ‘don’t pay at all if you make less than 50,000)?你的意思做一些除了每天花大量的金钱的财政援助,为低收入家庭(例如, '不支付所有如果您作出不少于5.0万) ? In terms of low-income recruitment etc?在条款低收入招聘等? It’sa very hot sort of diversity that well-to-do schools are definitely looking for more and more.这是非常炎热的排序的多样性,以及向学校这样做,肯定是寻找更多的。
Carolyn 卡罗林
December 4th, 2006 at 10:13 pm 2006年12月4日在下午10时13分
20 20Sandy,沙地,
No I do not think that African Americans are the only race that has been discriminated against and I never said so.没有我不认为这是非裔美国人是唯一的种族已歧视和我从来没有这样说。 When I say that race is one of many characteristics that should be considered, it is not just for African Americans, but other races as well, including Whites.当我说那场比赛是其中的许多特点,应该加以考虑,这不仅是为非裔美国人,但其他种族以及,包括白人。 Your race is part of who you are, and it often determines how others respond to you,good or bad.你的种族的一部分,你是谁,它往往决定了别人如何回应你,好还是坏。 People in general are not comfortable discussing race.一般人不喜欢讨论的军备竞赛。 We often prefer to ignore the elephant in the room.我们常常宁愿忽视的大象在房间内。 Until we’re able to have frank and honest discussions about race, we will continue to pretend we live in a color blind society when in fact we do not.直到我们能有坦诚的讨论,种族,我们将继续假装我们生活在一个彩色的盲社会时,其实我们不。
It is easy to pretend that race does not or should not matter, or to simply discount it if you’ve never had to deal with race issues on a personal level on a regular basis.这是很容易假装种族并不或不应该的事,或干脆折扣,如果您以前从来没有遇到过,以处理种族问题就在个人层面上定期的基础上。 Being a particular race could mean being given special privileges, perks if you will.正在某一种族可能意味着被给予特别的特权,福利,如果您的意愿。 Or your race could prove to be a disadvantage but no one wants to talk about it.或您的种族的人也可以证明是一种劣势,但没有人愿意谈论它。
I see diversity as a good thing.我看到多样性,作为一件好事。 I’m sorry that you seem to feel that colleges that strive to increase diversity is shoving it down your throat.我很抱歉,您似乎认为,学院努力增加多样性是shoving下来,您的咽喉。 The wonderful thing about having so many different colleges to chose from is that students and parents who are fed up with diversity can chose a college that seeks to have a homogeneous student body.奇妙的事,大约有这么多不同的高校选择是由学生和家长谁是厌倦了多样性,可以选择学院,旨在有一个均匀的学生团体。 I think this is perfectly ok.我认为这是完全确定。 You should chose a college where you best fit in. My daughter is in the process of applying to a variety of schools.你应该选择一个大学生,您最适合英寸我的女儿是在这个过程中运用了各种学校。 Ultimately the school she choses will most definitely have a diverse student population because it is something she values and appreciates.最终学校,她choses将最肯定有一个不同的学生人口,因为这是她的价值观和赞赏。
Sandy 沙质
December 4th, 2006 at 11:12 pm 2006年12月4日在下午11时12分
21 21In Response to Carolyn who notes,”Your race is part of who you are, and it often determines how others respond to you,good or bad”在回应卡罗林谁注意到, “你的种族的一部分,你是谁,它往往决定了别人如何回应你,好或坏”
Response: Yes, and no.回应:是的,没有。 In my travels, I have found that most people have preconceptions. Moreover, like it or not, people tend to associate, respect and like others of similar looks and mindset UNTIL they get to know the other person.
Haven’t you ever met someone that you had formed some prior opinion of, yet, once you got to talk and know that person, you belief system changed about them, either positively or negatively? It certainly has occured to me many times.
If I like someone or if that person says something that impresses me, my whole reaction towards them changes regardless of any preconceived beliefs and certainly regardless of race, creed, or religion or gender. I truly believe that others think the same way as I.
Moreover, I never, ever said that I want my kids to attend a homogenious college. I just want a college that doesn’t discriminate based on racial profiling. In fact, I don’t want to see racial profiling in society at all, with perhaps the sole exception of airport screeners looking for mideast terrorists. LOL
As for discrimination, I am Jewish. You don’t think that we Jews haven’t face discrimination as long as African Americans or even longer in the world? Moreover, I can assure you of one thing: it hasn’t stopped for us. It just is more subtle than that of discrimination against African Americans. Yet, you will NEVER hear any Jew say, “Society or the world owes us because of all the horrible things that have occured to Jews in the past.”Jews simply want the world to remember what happened so that it doesn’t happen to anyone or any race again.
As with Asians, we try very hard in school, work, and in life to succeed. We never make excuses. At least I have never heard any from anyone that I have met or known.
Even Jews living in Germany aren’t asking for any Affirmative Action. They just want to be left alone in peace so that they can survive and thrive on their own.
As I said, I am race neutral regarding college admission. It doesn’t impact me either way. However, look at schools that tend to be more homogeneous;
Berkeley,which has the highest Asian population in the country is certainly a top notch school.
Brandeis, which has a large Jewish population is top notch.
Notre Dame, which is primarily Catholic, is considered top notch.
Howard University is considered top notch here in DC.
In fact, most of the ivys, despite their attempt at diversity, is made up mostly of rich, white folks. Even minority kids that I know at ivy schools tend to be more upper middle class. I don’t see the ivys suffering from a lack in quality.
Notice: Not one of these top schools have been hurt by a lack of diversity.
Maybe I am not being politically correct in todays world. I just believe that it is the nature of the person that should matter and not their race ever! If they have achieved success despite economic or family hardship then they should be given, in my opinion, a “leg up.” However, not because they are black, white, green or tuti-fruity, but because they are deserving.
Carolyn
December 5th, 2006 at 11:50 am
22Sandy,
It would be great if all people (others) like you were open minded enough to judge people by their deeds and actions and not outward appearance. But in the real world this is not the case. Do you think unattractive overweight people are treated differently from skinny attractive people? I suggest you research studies that have been done around this very subject. I am baffled that you would think that everyone thinks as you do. Who are you including in this “others”? Who are you leaving out?
I have some very close Jewish friends, and they certainly do not see the world as you do. So be careful about saying what Jewish people will or will not do. How can you speak for all Jewish people?
I am also wondering if you think that All African Americans want something for nothing, feels the world owes them something and are not willing to work hard to achieve their goals. And speaking of Ivys, since diversity is important to me and my family, I make it a point to check out the racial makeup of various colleges. I’ve noticed that many of the top schools such as the Ivy League and Stanford have the highest percentage of African Americans when compared to lesser quality schools.
Last but not least, I’m wondering if you think there is such a thing as “the good old boy network”. Does this not exist in both business and social institutions? Although I disagree with some of your comments, I sincerely appreciate your honest answers and the fact that you are taking the time to respond.
Sandy
December 5th, 2006 at 6:47 pm
23Carolyn, let me address each issue that you noted
First, yes, skinny people and good looking people get treated differently than ugly or fat people. Life is what it is. However,
I have found that talent and ability eventually trumps looks.
I have a sister in law that is way overweight and certainly would not be good looking even if she were thin as a rail. However, once people meet her, they can’t help liking and respecting her. She is an invited speaker each year to national software conventions and people love her. Again, actions trump looks.
Yes not all Jews think as I . What I said, however, is that every jew that I met or know thought as I did. I do know that this doesn’t represent every Jew in the world.
Yes, stereotyping is dangerous. I can only speak from the data set of my experience.
Finally, I do believe that there is such a thing as “the good ole boy network.” People tend to associate with those that have similar views, beliefs etc. However, most small business people that I have met, and I have met hundreds of thousands in my lectures, usually try to get the best people working for them. Small business does focus on profit and can’t afford to talk lessor talent due to discimination. With that said, I know that discrimination exists even among small business people, but it is, in my opinion, a lessor problem than found in bigger companies.
Finally, life is not fair. People are given varying looks, People are given varying upbringing and talents, and abilities etc. We simply have to make do with the best that we can and be as flexible as possible in life.
DNA testing: A Little Affirmative Action talk for Christmas | the Sam Jackson College Experience
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24[…] don’t necessarily want to spark an affirmative action debate here as happened last year on the blog with my writings on Jian Li. What I do find interesting are the questions posed by […]
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