13 Nov 11月 13日 電
Posted by Sam Jackson as張貼由Sam傑克遜 Admissions 招生 , , College 學院 , , Teenagers 青少年
This is a ‘part 1′ because this is a very big very thorny issue which concerns affirmative action and much more .這是一個'的一部分, 1 ' ,因為這是一個非常大的非常棘手的問題,關注的肯定行動和更多的工作 。 As such I will in the near future be writing a ‘part 2′ which directly addresses any AA-related concerns I’m having about this topic here… but for now, my understanding of the issue:這樣,我會在不久的將來,寫'的一部分, 2 ' ,其中直接涉及任何機管局有關的問題我在有關此主題在這裡… …但現在,我所理解的問題:
Pulitzer prize winner普立茲獎得主 Daniel Golden wrote a piece about “whether elite colleges give Asian-American students a fair shake” in last Saturday’s Wall Street Journal.丹尼爾黃金寫了一塊約“是否名牌大學給了亞洲和美國的學生一個公平的動搖”在上週六的華爾街日報。 It focused specifically on the case of one Jian Li, a Chinese permanent legal resident who went to a NJ public school having emigrated at age 4.它的重點是專門就案件之一,李健,中國常駐的合法居民,誰去了新澤西州公立學校後,移民在4歲。 Mr. Li recently filed a complaint against Princeton University for rejecting him through the Dept. Education’s Office for Civil Rights; he is currently a freshman at Yale.李先生最近提交了一份投訴,普林斯頓大學的拒絕,他通過研究教育辦公室的公民權利,他目前是一年級在耶魯。 (nb, this is not a tort case, it is a complaint about what Li feels was discrimination.) (注意,這不是一個民事侵權案件,這是一個投訴什麼李覺得是歧視) 。
This is an issue that throws a lot of people off sometimes, because some people confuse a) Affirmative action with b) race-based discrimination.這是一個問題拋出一個很多人的小康,有時,因為有些人混淆一)平權行動與二)基於種族的歧視。 Private universities in the United States are not required to have the same ‘objective’ qualifications that businesses or real estate have; race discrimination is only happening if there a pattern (in this case acceptance / rejection) unique to one race or ethnicity on the basis of unfair (nonstandard) comparisons–hence the problem with Berkeley’s law program back in the early 90s, which took Asians out of the general pool and compared them against each other.私立大學在美國是不須有相同的'客觀'資格的企業或房地產有;種族歧視,只是發生的事情,如果有一個模式(在這種情況下接受/拒絕)獨特的一個種族或民族的基礎上不公平的(非標準)比較-因此,問題與大學柏克萊分校的法律程式,早在90年代初,這是亞洲人擺脫一般游泳池和比較,他們對對方。
A quote from the article to start us off here:引用的文章開始我們小康的位置:
The Office for Civil Rights initially rejected Mr. Li’s complaint due to “insufficient” evidence.辦公室的公民權利最初拒絕了李先生的投訴,由於“不足”的證據。 Mr. Li appealed, citing a white high-school classmate admitted to Princeton despite lower test scores and grades.李先生呼籲為由,白色的高校的同班同學承認,普林斯頓,儘管較低的測驗分數及職系。 The office notified him late last month that it would look into the case.辦公室通知他上個月底,它將研究的情況。
His complaint seeks to suspend federal financial assistance to Princeton until the university “discontinues discrimination against Asian-Americans in all forms by eliminating race preferences, legacy preferences, and athlete preferences.” Legacy preference is the edge most elite colleges, including Princeton, give to alumni children.他的投訴,旨在暫停聯邦財政援助,以普林斯頓大學,直到大學“終止歧視亞裔美國人在一切形式消除種族偏好,傳統的偏好,和運動員偏好” 。遺留下來的偏好是最邊緣的精英學院,包括普林斯頓大學,給校友子女。 The Office for Civil Rights has the power to terminate such financial aid but usually works with colleges to resolve cases rather than taking enforcement action.辦公室的公民權利有權力終止這種財政援助,但通常與工程學院,以解決個案,而非採取執法行動。
That more or less sets the stage, but doesn’t answer my biggest question about Mr. Li’s claims: Jian Li had a 2400 SAT I and excellent SAT IIs, but what else was there?更多或更少集階段,但不回答我的最大的問題約李官奇的索賠:李健了2400年星期六,我和良好的星期六的非法入境者,但還有什麼是有? He had good grades, so he was clearly academically qualified.他曾好成績,因此他顯然是學歷。 Yet how else does he compare to this white applicant from his school that was accepted?然而,否則,如何,他是否比較這份白皮書申請人從他的學校,這是接受呢? Reading about this story, I just want more facts, and I can’t seem to find them anywhere.閱讀關於這個故事,我只想更多的事實,我似乎無法找到它們的任何地方。 While considering the subjective criteria that Princeton and other elite US schools use to gauge applicants, numbers alone are not enough to form a complete comparison.同時,考慮到主觀的標準,普林斯頓大學和其他精英,美國學校使用,以了解申請人的,數字本身是不夠的,以形成一個完整的比較。
Next question: Why did Li sue Princeton, rather than Penn, Stanford, MIT, or Harvard, all of which rejected him (unfairly, he felt) after wait listing him?接下來的問題:為什麼李控告普林斯頓,而非西恩潘,斯坦福大學,麻省理工學院或哈佛大學,所有這些拒絕他(不公平,他認為)後,等待上市的他呢?
“He ultimately focused his complaint against Princeton after reading a 2004 study by three Princeton researchers concluding that an Asian-American applicant needed to score 50 points higher on the SAT than other applicants to have the same chance of admission to an elite university.” “他最終的重點是他的投訴後,普林斯頓大學讀2004年的一項研究是由三普林斯頓的研究人員得出結論認為,一個亞洲和美國的申請人需要評分50分的較高的SAT考試比其他申請人有相同的機會入學的精英大學” 。
I’ve read that study; it’sa perfectly good study, but it doesn’t negate the fact that at the ‘top-tier’ American schools stats are not the only thing being considered.我已閱讀研究;這是絕對良好的學習,但這並不否定事實,即在'頂級'美國學校的統計是不是唯一的事,正在考慮中。 This is why when affirmative action is banned in some public institutions, notably the University of California (which we have data for) the Asian-American enrollment goes up–these schools rely on stats alone much more than do these top schools.這就是為什麼當扶持行動是禁止在一些公共機構,特別是美國加州大學(我們的數據)亞洲和美國的報名上升-這些學校的依賴於統計,僅遠不止這些頂尖學校。
So, here is what it looks like to me, at first glance: Li has a 2400 SAT and great stats overall, and is waitlisted at then rejected by lots of good schools before two also very great schools accept him (Yale and Caltech). 所以,這裡是什麼,它看起來像對我來說,乍看之下:李有2400星期六和偉大的統計總體而言,是在輪候,然後拒絕了很多好學校之前,雙方還非常大學校接受他(耶魯大學和加州理工學院) 。 What happens next I don’t understand.接下來該怎麼做我不明白。 HYPSM are known to reject plenty of perfect scorers–where exactly the basis for discrimination comes in I don’t understand, because these schools do not operate on the basis of stats alone. hypsm是眾所周知的拒絕很多完美的分手,哪裡正是歧視的基礎是在我不明白,因為這些學校沒有的基礎上運作的統計,單。 They care about extracurricular and leadership and all these things.他們關心的課外活動和領導以及所有這些東西。 I can see a plausible concern in general, but not one stemming from his case alone.我可以看到一個可能的關注,在一般,但沒有一個源於他的案件。
“Ah,” you say, “they do care about those things, but perhaps they just use them as an excuse or subjective ‘reason’ to reject those applicants they feel are undesirable in too great a quantity–perhaps Asians are now in the same position that Jews once were!” “啊, ”你說, “他們所關心的那些事情,但也許他們只是利用他們作為藉口,或主觀的'理由 ' 拒絕的申請人,他們覺得是不可取的 ,在過大的數量,也許亞洲人現在在相同的猶太人的立場,即一旦被“ ! See again Malcomb Gladwell’s old piece in the New Yorker見再次malcomb格萊德威爾的舊片,在新的紐約客 on modern elite college admissions which alludes back to Jerome Karabel’s The Chosen (I keep plugging that book because it keeps being good!).對現代精英大學招生,其中提到了回杰羅姆卡拉伯的選擇(我一直堵這本書,因為它一直被好! ) 。 We had an assembly speaker who brought this up when discussing bias in objective hiring–people find “excuses” to hire one candidate (towards the bias, ie Caucasian) regardless of whether that particular ‘excuse’ was being sought after in the applicant process (ie, experience, or skill, or whatever difference can be found between the two candidates).我們有一個議會議長誰帶來了這個時候討論的偏見,在客觀租用-人民找到“藉口”聘請一名候選人(對偏見,即白人)不論該特別是'藉口'正在尋求後,在申請人的進程(即,經驗或技能,或什麼差異,可以發現兩者之間候選人) 。 But…但…
Not necessarily.不一定。 Show me proof–show me the memos and letters we have from old college presidents and admissions folks saying that there were too many Jews enrolling–show me that for Asian-Americans.顯示我證明給我看備忘錄和信件,我們從舊的大學校長和招生鄉親說,有太多的猶太人招生-查看我說,為亞裔美國人。 I don’t have the evidence of a technical, legal discrimination–though I am happy to see there are sort of inquiries being made about it.我手邊沒有證據的技術,法律上的歧視-雖然我很高興看到有排序的調查正在取得它。
However, this really only scratches the surface, because this is only looking at the purest facts I could find about the issue.不過,這真的只有刮痕,表面上,因為這是只有看精純的事實,我可以找到有關的問題。 There is a bigger issue–the social ramifications of this question, and how Mr. Li’s complaint jives with other proposals, initiatives, lobbying groups and so forth.有一個更大的問題的社會後果,這個問題,以及如何李先生的投訴jives與其他的建議,倡議,遊說團體,等等。 The internet is互聯網 buzzing熱鬧 about this article, actually.有關這篇專題文章的,其實。 I’ll be writing more about it, but I was just trying to skirt the ‘AA good / bad’ question in this post and just talk about whether or not I thought Li necessarily had a case here.我會寫更多地了解它,但我只是想穿裙子的'機管局好/壞'的問題,在這個職位和公正的談論是否或不是,我以為李一定有一個案件在這裡。 As an African American Jew, I think I have a slightly different perspective on this matter than Mr. Li or some of my peers.作為一個非洲裔美國猶太人,我覺得我有一個略有不同的角度來看這件事比李先生或我的一些同儕。 You’ll just have to wait a little bit to hear it…您只需要等待一點點聽到…
24 Responses 24日的反應
steve 史蒂夫
November 13th, 2006 at 7:17 pm 2006年11月13日在下午7點17分
1 1Sam,三,
The WSJ article doesn’t go into enough detail to determine the merits of Li’s case, as you point out.在華爾街日報的文章並沒有進入不夠詳細,以確定的優點,李的情況下,正如你指出。
But the question of whether there is systematic discrimination against Asians at elite universities is not really in doubt.但問題是是否有系統地歧視亞洲人在精英大學是不是真的令人懷疑。 See the article below, and the quote from a former Stanford admissions officer about an internal study there.看到下面的文章,並引述一位前斯坦福大學招生人員對內部研究。 Note the applicants compared were (a) all unhooked and (b) comparable of *both* academic and leadership criteria.注意:申請人相比,分別為: (一)所有unhooked及( b )可比*都*學術和領導準則。 I doubt things are any different at Princeton.我懷疑的東西,是任何不同的普林斯頓。
http://insidehighered.com/news/2006/10/10/asian
Reider said he thought the article and the question of “Too Asian?” that it posed was “shameful” and said that he was “embarrassed” as an American that such a piece would appear today. reider表示,他認為文章和問題“太亞洲? ” ,它帶來的是“可恥” ,並說他是“尷尬”作為一個美國人,這樣的作品會出現在今天。 He asked whether anyone would think of publishing an article called “Too Latino?” and compared the bias to the kind of bigotry that for decades limited the enrollment of Jewish students at top private universities.他詢問,是否有人會認為出版一篇文章,所謂的“太拉丁裔? ” ,並比較了偏見,向種偏執的認為,幾十年來,有限的招生的猶太學生在頂端的私立大學。 “This is a racist question,” he said. “這是一個種族主義的問題, ”他說。
He also said that the bias is real — and cited his experience in his previous job as part of the admissions office at Stanford University.他還表示,偏見是真實的-並引述他的經驗在他以前工作的一部分,該招生辦公室在斯坦福大學。 There, he said, the office did a study some years ago in which it compared Asian and white applicants with the same overall academic and leadership rankings.在那裡,他說,該辦公室做了一些研究,多年前在它相比,亞洲和白色的申請人,同時整體的學術和領導的排名。 The study was only of “unhooked kids,” meaning those with no extra help for being an alumni child or an athlete.這項研究只是“ unhooked孩子” ,也就是說那些沒有額外的幫助,被一校友子女或運動員。 The study found that comparably qualified white applicants were “significantly” more likely to be admitted than their Asian counterparts.研究發現,相對合格的白色申請者“明顯”更容易被承認,比他們的亞洲同行。
steve 史蒂夫
November 13th, 2006 at 7:34 pm 2006年11月13日在下午7點34分
2 2Oops, “comparable of” should be “comparable in” …糟糕, “可比”應該是“可比在” … …
To do a reasonable study of this type (which I assume the Stanford people are capable of), one would group together applicants who are comparable according to the overall admission criteria (grades, scores, activities, etc.) and look for the effect (perhaps subconscious!) of ethnicity on the outcome.做一個合理的研究,這種類型的(我擔任斯坦福人民有能力) ,一組將共同申請人誰是可比根據整體收生準則(等級,分數,活動等) ,並尋找影響(也許潛意識! )種族的研究結果。
According to the tables you link to in a previous post, only about 240 students per year in the entire country obtain a 2400 SAT I score.根據該表,你鏈接到在一個先前的文章中,只有約240學生,每年在整個國家取得2400坐在i評分。 So, Li is a pretty exceptional kid.因此,李是一個相當特殊的孩子。 There are not *that* many perfect-scorers for the elite schools to reject有沒有* *很多完美的得分為名校拒絕
Sam Jackson 山姆傑克遜
November 13th, 2006 at 9:07 pm 2006年11月13日在下午9點07分
3 3He had only 237 friends up there at 2400, that’s true.他只是237的朋友在那裡,在2400年,這是真的。 All the same, SAT Is are only useful to a point–there are plenty of studies about testing “ranges” per individual student, and that degree of variance per sitting has only gone up with the addition of the writing, making scores less useful in one respect.所有相同,週六是只有有用的一個點有很多的研究,有關測試“範圍”每個別學生,而且程度的差異,每次聆訊只上升加上寫作,使分數用處不大,在一,尊重。 Above a certain point–well below 2400–more points are really just going to be bringing up a school’s ranking average, and not saying very much about a kid.上述的某一個點,遠低於2400年,更點真的只是要造就一所學校的排名平均水平,並不是說十分左右孩子。 At least, that’s what I hope–because I know plenty of people with scores lower than Li, lower than mine, who are just as smart.至少,這就是我希望-因為我知道很多人與分數低於李,低於礦山,誰都是一樣的智能。
My problem with the comparison to the situation faced by Jews–the one which PRECEDED the development of our subjective admissions, meant to keep Jews out– is that the selection criteria at that time were different than they were now, significantly.我的問題與比較,面臨的形勢,猶太人-其中前面的發展,我們的主觀招生,這意味著保持猶太人地地道道的是,甄選準則在不同的時間,比他們現在,顯著。 It makes the analogy feel slightly flawed, vaguely incomplete.它使這個比喻,覺得稍微有瑕疵,隱約不完整。 I’m going to try to address it in part 2 so I can’t spoil my logic by giving it away early, but!我要去嘗試,以解決它在第2部分,所以我不能破壞我的邏輯使它遠離早,但! : ) : )
It’s Reider’s commentary, moreso than Golden’s tiptoeing, that I’m looking for (I’d forgotten about that piece… October seems so long ago).它的reider的評論,更何況比黃金的tiptoeing ,我在找(我要忘記這塊… 10月,似乎不久前) 。 I want some hard evidence, I want the office of civil rights to turn up some juicy stuff.我想一些確鑿證據,我想辦公室的公民權利,把一些多汁的東西。 I’ll do some snooping tomorrow.我會做一些窺探的明天。
thanks so much for commenting and reading!感謝這麼多評論和閱讀! (Everyone besides steve: you should go read steve’s blog, and subscribe to it just like me, because it is very cool) (大家除了史蒂夫:你應該去閱讀史蒂夫的博客,訂閱它和我一樣,因為它是非常酷)
steve 史蒂夫
November 13th, 2006 at 9:50 pm 2006年11月13日在下午9點50分
4 4Sam,三,
You are definitely right that any discrimination against Asians today pales in comparison to what Jews had to face earlier in the 20th century.你是絕對的權利,任何歧視亞洲人今天黯然失色,在比較什麼猶太人不得不面對早些時候,在20世紀。
I would not be surprised if almost all of the anti-Asian effect is from subconscious stereotyping on the part of admissions people, or unintended consequences of other policies.我不會感到驚訝,如果幾乎所有的反亞裔的影響是從潛意識的定型對部分招生的人,或意想不到的後果的其他政策。
You are also correct that the SAT probably has limited ability to differentiate between students at the high end.你也正確的SAT考試,可能有能力有限,區分學生在高端。
It will be very interesting to see what the Li cases dredges up!那將是非常有趣的,看看有什麼李案件耙了!
Sam Jackson 山姆傑克遜
November 14th, 2006 at 2:18 pm 2006年11月14日在下午2時18分
5 5One particularly ugly thing it seems to be dredging up right now is stereotypes… as evidenced by the conversation online in some places.一,特別是醜陋的事,它似乎是疏浚起來的權利,現在是刻板印象…證明了該會話在線在一些地方。 See: College Confidential->見:高校機密“ -> http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=260420
just gets nasty in some places.剛剛獲得惡劣,在有些地方。
Sandy 沙質
November 14th, 2006 at 3:01 pm 2006年11月14日在下午3時01分
6 6Frankly, the whole issue of affirmative action leave me cold.坦白說,整個問題的扶持行動留下我冷戰。 I certainly do understand some preference being given for gender equality and geographic preferences.當然,我也明白一些偏好正在考慮兩性平等和地理的喜好。 I can even understand Legacy preferences in order to raise more money from alumni.我什至可以理解的遺產偏好,以提高更多的錢從校友。 However, I can’t understand any preference or discrimination based on race.不過,我實在不明白任何偏好或歧視是基於種族。
As you note Sam, this certainly seems to be similar to what Jews experienced post WWII.正如你注意到心,這當然似乎是類似什麼猶太人經歷了二次大戰後。
Yes, there is no explicit evidence such as emails and letters that Asians are being discriminated against because of their high number of qualified applicants.是的,有沒有明確的證據,如電子郵件和信件,亞洲人是受到歧視,因為他們的高數量的合格申請人。 However, if one reviews the applicant pool at most top tier colleges and looks at the stats for those admitted, I would bet that for most top schools, Asians have to have better credentials than non-Asians.但是,如果一評語申請人池最頂級高校,並期待在統計那些承認,我會投注為最頂尖學校,亞洲人必須有更好的全權證書比非亞洲人。 The Princeton study also reinforces this argument.普林斯頓的研究也強化了這個論點。
My problem with any racial profiling for admission is, “where does it end?” If too many qualified Jews or Catholics apply, should there be a plateau for them?我的問題與任何種族貌相入學的是, “哪裡結束? ”如果有太多合格的猶太人或天主教徒申請,應該有一個高原為他們呢? Frankly, I think that using race in any way for admission opens a “Pandora’s Box” that I don’t think we, as a country want to have.坦白說,我認為,使用種族以任何方式入學打開了“潘多拉的盒子”我不認為我們,作為一個國家希望能有。 It is also creating a major backlash in this country, which is why whenever there was a constitutional mandate to prohibit AA in State Schools, the mandate easily passed by the voters even with lower funding then provided by the pro-affirmative action folks.這亦是創造一個重大反彈,在這個國家,這就是為什麼每當有一個憲法規定,禁止機管局在國家的學校,任務很容易通過的選民,甚至較低的資金,然後提供親的平權行動的鄉親。
I think it is time to end any affirmative action based on race.我認為這是時間去年底,平權行動的任何基於種族。 This includes racial preferences and includes eliminating higher plateaus for Asians.這包括種族偏好,並包括消除較高的高原為亞洲人。
Sam Jackson 山姆傑克遜
November 14th, 2006 at 3:26 pm 2006年11月14日在下午3時26分
7 7Diversity for gender sprang up at these elite institutions on one basis, first and foremost–”good boys” didn’t want to go to a single-sex school.多樣性的性別興起,在這些精英機構對1的基礎上,首要的- “好男孩”不想去一個單一性別的學校。 Valiant claims of equality were secondary, largely.英勇的要求平等的中學,主要是。 For race, it was a slightly different matter.為種族,這是一個略有不同的事。 At the same time, there IS a genuine basis for race-based affirmative action–teams do better and accomplish more when the group is more diverse, both gender-wise and racially.在同一時間內,有一個真正的基礎,基於種族平權行動-隊做得更好,完成更多的時,該集團是更多元化,無論性別和種族明智的。 Having more perspectives available translates into a greater pool of ideas–something with obvious value for higher education.有更多的角度,可轉化為更大的池的想法-一些有明顯價值的高等教育。
Personally, even if I ‘understand’ the purported rationale behind legacy / development admissions standards / practices, I resent it in a way I don’t affirmative action–not just because I won’t benefit in any way from legacy / development, because obviously I will wherever I go in the sense of lovely buildings and new research centers funded by donations.我個人來說,即使我'明白'的本意是背後的理據的遺產/發展的入學標準/做法,我反感,它在一種方法,我不肯定的行動不僅是因為我會不利於以任何方式從傳統/發展,因為很明顯,我將在何處我在意識可愛的建築物和新的研究中心資助的捐款。 The race for ever-huger endowments at the top (see: stanford’s 4.5 billion capital campaign) is just disturbing.比賽越來越龐大的天賦在最上方(見:斯坦福的45.0億資本運動) ,只是令人不安。 Offer FA for the poor, sure–get that socioeconomic diversity, that’s important too.提供發為窮人,肯定得說,社會經濟的多樣性,認為重要的。 The middle class gets squeezed there, unfortunately (that’s me!).中產階層得到擠在那裡,很可惜(這就是我! ) 。 But I care more about who is working with me in the lab–that it’sa diverse group–than whether or not the equipment is the absolute cutting edge.但我更關心誰是工作與我在實驗室認為,這是不同的組比,不論該設備是絕對的尖端。 For research universities, it’s too easy to lose sight of that.為研究型大學,它的太容易忽略了這一點。 But again, I think ideas come from people, and though having good toys and tools to enable their work is important, it is less important than that diversity.但同樣地,我覺得思路來自人民,雖然具有良好的玩具和工具,使他們的工作是重要的是,它是那麼重要,比多樣性。
But, ah, that’s just a snapshot of some of my feelings–sorry to rant a little bit.但是,啊,這只是一個快照,我的一些感受-抱歉, rant一點點。 I was trying to paraphrase a nice assembly speaker we had a few weeks ago, a microbiologist from U Wisconsin… I have to look up her name again, I wasn’t able to find it last night when I was looking.我是試圖段一尼斯議長我們曾在數星期前,微生物學家鈾威斯康星州… …我要看看了她的名字,我再次無法找到它,昨晚當我一直在尋找。 She was talking about the value of diversity as demonstrated in controlled studies of workplaces, so forth.她談論的價值的多樣性表明,在對照研究的工作場所,等等。 I think the same is true for learning environments, though I don’t know if there is raw data to back that up.我認為也是一樣的學習環境,雖然我不知道是否有原始數據的備份,直至。 It’s still a working environment, even if it is learning, so…它的仍是一個工作環境,即使是學習,所以…
The reason many of these mandates pass sometimes, I think, is that AA tends to put minorities above majorities… and so when you have everyone vote, those majorities are going to be flexing their muscles and if they have short-term goals in mind (I want to get me / my son into college) well, we see what happens.原因有很多,這些任務通過有時候,我覺得這是機管局往往把少數人以上的多數… …並因此,當你有大家投票,這些多數是要收縮其肌肉及如果他們有短期目標,在銘記(我想取得我/我的兒子進入大學) ,我們看看會發生什麼情況。 That being said in the context of state schools AA is less… less reasonable sometimes, because it is translated into quantifiable characteristics–ie, you’re black, you get x Admissions points, you’re white, -20, so forth.說了這番話語境中的國立學校,機管局是少…少合理的,有時,因為它是轉化為可以量化的特色-即,您的黑色,您可以獲得x招生點,您白, -20 ,等等。 At least, that’s how it appears sometimes, and I don’t know that that is exactly in tune with the philosophy of AA as I like to imagine it.至少,這就是它如何出現,有時,我不知道,這正是在調與哲學,機管局作為我最喜愛的想像。
BUT all this for another post.但是,這一切都為另一職位。 Man.男人。 I should write it faster, I guess.我應該將它寫快,我猜想。
Sandy 沙質
November 14th, 2006 at 4:09 pm 2006年11月14日在下午4時09分
8 8Sam notes, “But I care more about who is working with me in the lab–that it’sa diverse group–than whether or not the equipment is the absolute cutting edge.”薩姆指出, “但我更關心誰是工作與我在實驗室認為,這是不同的組比,不論該設備是絕對的前沿” 。
Response: I am surprised that you feel this way.回應:我覺得很奇怪,你覺得這種方式。 I would take cutting edge, top equipment over mediocre equipment ANYTIME over having a lot of other “diverse” researchers on the team.我想藉此尖端,頂端的設備超過平庸的設備,隨時超過擁有大量其他“多樣”的研究人員對團隊。
Your attitude is astounding.你的態度是令人驚嘆。
I can honestly say that I know of no parent that says to themselves,”I like this school for my kids because it is so diverse.” Maybe among African American parents the thought process is very different from what I think.我可以誠實地說我所知,從來沒有家長表示,說自己, “我喜歡這所學校為我的孩子,因為它是如此多樣化, ”也許,其中非裔美國人的父母思想的過程中是非常不同的從我的想法。
Bottom line: I want my kids to have access to the best, cutting edge equipment and best research professors around.底線:我想我的孩子能夠獲得最好的,尖端的設備和最好的研究教授。 If there is a diverse student body, fine;however, it will have no effect on my or my kid’s college decision process.如果有一個多元化的學生團體,並處以罰金;不過,將不會影響我或我的孩子的高校決策過程。
Sam Jackson 山姆傑克遜
November 14th, 2006 at 6:17 pm 2006年11月14日在下午6時17分
9 9Sandy, I have to disagree with you.沙地,我不同意你。 I’m not saying I would necessarily take “mediocre” equipment… obviously the hypothetical is necessarily unspecific, I’m afraid.我不是說我一定會採取“平庸”設備…很明顯,假設一定是具體,我很害怕。 I’m biracial, mind you–african american and jewish–so it isn’t just that I have “african american parents” if you were inferring that.我biracial ,銘記您的非裔美國人和猶太人,所以這不僅是我“非洲裔美國人的父母: ”如果你被推斷。 Perhaps being biracial has made me more open minded even than some people just exposed to one ethnic group at home, I could not say.也許正biracial令我更開放的態度,甚至比有些人恰恰暴露了一個族群在家裡,我不能說。
But when I am looking at schools, diversity is of course an issue.但是,當我期待在學校,多樣性,這當然是一個問題。 However, these days, most places do a pretty good job attracting diverse student bodies–at the least, the very elite schools do an excellent job, though they continue to work to make it better.不過,這些天來,大部分地方做一個不錯的工作,吸引多元化的學生團體-在最低限度,很名校做了出色的工作,雖然他們繼續努力,以使其更臻完美。
A lab was also perhaps not the best of examples, as much science, math, tech is color blind (in the material, that is). 1勞顧會,也可能不是一個最好的例子,多科學,數學,技術,是彩色的盲(在物質,即是) 。 However, from my own experience, there is a marked difference when I am discussing certain topics with a group of either a) nearly homogeneous people or b) a more diverse group.不過,從我自己的經驗,是有顯著差異,當我討論某些議題,與一組要么一)近均勻人或b )一個更多元化的集團。
Do you not value diversity beyond gender?你不多樣性的價值超越性別? I mean, gender is one thing right there–but so are economic means (bringing in poorer people, particularly) and ethnicity.我的意思是,性別是一件事的權利,有-但都是經濟手段(實現在較窮的人,尤其是)和種族。 I know that when you are running a spectrometer it doesn’t matter who your lab partner is in terms of what you are going to get, and if a white or an asian person is looking through a microscope they’re going to be getting the same image, but there’s more to learning and research than just the data.我知道當您正在運行譜儀,它並不不論是誰,您的勞顧會是在合作夥伴的條件是什麼你要得到,如果白色或亞洲的人是通過看顯微鏡,他們要去獲得該同樣的形象,而且有更多的學習和研究的不僅僅是數據。 Problem-solving across disciplines is improved by having a more diverse team–and modern sciences are just that, team work.解決問題的跨學科,是改善有一個更多元化的團隊和現代科學只是,團隊工作。 No more lone wolves doing groundbreaking work.沒有更多的孤獨的狼所做的開創性工作。
I’m not prepared to precisely arrange these priorities–ie, this much diversity is analogous to this much millions of dollars in research funding–but to disregard diversity as a selection factor at all is, I think, DANGEROUSLY closed minded and does not reflect the reality of the world we live in, a world which has many different kinds of people in it.我不準備安排,正是這些優先事項-即,這麼多的多樣性是類似這麼多的數百萬美元的研究經費,但是,無視多樣性作為一個選擇的因素,在所有,我認為是危險的封閉的態度,並不能反映現實,我們生活的世界,一個世界上有許多不同種的人。 If you feel you or your son / daughter would be equally prepared for that world coming from a place where everyone was the same… good luck.如果您覺得您或您的兒子/女兒將同樣的準備,世界未來從一個地方,大家是相同的…好運氣。 I’ll take my chances with the more interesting more diverse group.我將採取我的機會,與更有趣更多元化的集團。
For similar reasons I’d want to be in or near a big-ish city or something like it (Ithaca, for example, makes up for its smaller size).出於類似的原因我要不想被或附近的一個大原位雜交城市或類似的東西,它(伊薩卡,舉例來說,彌補了它的體積小) 。
Sandy 沙質
November 14th, 2006 at 6:52 pm 2006年11月14日在下午6時52分
10 10Sam notes, “Do you not value diversity beyond gender?”薩姆指出, “你不多樣性的價值超越性別” ?
Fesponse: No I don’t. fesponse :沒有我不會這樣做。 I value a meritocracy.My kids had sufficient diversity of many types in high school.我珍惜一meritocracy.my孩子們有足夠的多樣性,許多不同類型的高中。 They don’t need it shoved down their throats forever.他們不需要它被推下了他們的喉嚨永遠。
Sam also notes,”–but to disregard diversity as a selection factor at all is, I think, DANGEROUSLY closed minded and does not reflect the reality of the world we live in, a world which has many different kinds of people in it”山姆還注意到, “但無視多樣性作為一個選擇的因素,在所有,我認為是危險的封閉的態度,並不能反映現實,我們生活的世界,一個世界上有許多不同種的人”
Response: Sam, I am NOT saying that companies and governmnent shouldn’t hire all types of people or that there should be any discrimination.回應:山姆,我不是說公司和governmnent不應該聘請所有類型的人或應該有任何歧視。 I just feel that hiring should be based on merit, and the same should be said of admission to colleges and graduate schools.To me, when a schools or company says they use a “Holistic Approach” to recruiting, this can easily be just an guise for outright discrimination.我只是覺得僱用應基於優異,同時應該說,錄取高校和研究生schools.to我,當一個學校或公司說,他們使用一個“全面的方式”來招聘,這可輕易只是一個假借為買斷賣斷的歧視。 Frankly, I believe that a lot of discrimination does occur under this deception of “holistic approach.” What a great way for bigets to get exactly what they want or don’t want.坦白說,我相信有很多歧視下發生的這欺騙“整體的辦法。 ”什麼偉大的方式為bigets獲得正是他們想要或不想。 Just claim,” we are recruiting based on a holistic approach.”剛剛聲稱, “我們正在招聘的基礎上,全面的方式” 。
However, we can agree to disagree.不過,我們可以同意不同意。
By the way, are you in college now?由的方式,你在大學,現在呢? If so, where?如果是的話,在哪裡?
Joseph 約瑟夫。
November 15th, 2006 at 4:06 pm 2006年11月15日在下午4時06分
11 11Sandy’s valuing of gender diversity exclusively smacks of hypocrisy.沙地的重視性別多樣性的專門之嫌虛偽。 If indeed her interest is solely directed toward providing her children with the best facilities and opportunities, why does gender become a consideration?如果確實是她的興趣,純粹是針對她提供兒童最好的設施和機會,為何不成為一個性別的考慮呢? Sandy may claim that there are institutional barriers to the full participation of women in our society, but that applies at least equally to other groups that suffered from well-documented discriminatory treatment.沙質可能聲稱有體制性障礙,向婦女的充分參與,在我們的社會,但適用於至少同樣與其他群體遭受證據確鑿的歧視性待遇。
Beyond egalitarian ideals, diversity has value in the range of perspectives it fosters.超越平等的理想,多樣性的價值,在一系列的觀點,它促進。 In a global economy, understanding the values and perspectives of different cultures leads to novel approaches and solutions to problems.在全球經濟中,價值觀的理解和觀點不同的文化導致新的方法和解決問題。 From a business perspective it is critical to the development of effective marketing strategies.從商業的角度來看,這是至關重要的發展有效的營銷策略。 Japanese automobile industry executives do not use the same marketing strategies and cars that they have in Japan to sell in the US.日本汽車業主管不使用相同的營銷策略和汽車,他們已在日本出售在美國的。 They rely on US based personnel and strategies.他們依靠對總部設在美國的人事和戰略。 Succeeding globally requires diversity.繼全球需要的多樣性。 Sandy should let go of the xenophobia, reconsider shunning the Latino kids and give careful thought to studying spanish.沙質應該放手的仇外心理,重新考慮迴避拉丁裔的孩子和審慎考慮學習西班牙語。
Sandy 沙質
November 15th, 2006 at 4:20 pm 2006年11月15日在下午4時20分
12 12Joseph, Sandy is a guy!約瑟夫,沙地是一個傢伙!
Secondly, I am NOT xenophobic.其次,我不排外。 I am just against any form of discrimination or bias.我只是反對任何形式的歧視或偏見。
Li seems to be playing the world’s smallest violin right now « AdmitSpit 李似乎是公平的世界上最小的小提琴的權利,現在« admitspit
November 20th, 2006 at 8:22 pm 2006年11月20日在下午8時22分
13 13[…] I’ve been following with piqued interest for several days now about this whole Princeton vs. Li upcoming lawsuit ordeal. [ … … ]我一直在以下與piqued利益數天,現在這整個普林斯頓與李即將到來的訴訟折磨。 Fellow blogger, Sam Jackson, provides a great, slightly-lengthy recap of the issue at hand in his post titled, “WSJ asks: ‘Is Admissions Bar Higher for Asians At Elite Schools?’ [part 1]” which I will not rewrite again here; I do recommend reading through it to familiarize yourself with the debate and points of contention.研究員的Blogger ,山姆傑克遜,提供了一個很大的,稍-冗長的扼要重述的問題,另一方面在他的後名為“華爾街日報問道: '是招生酒吧較高,亞洲人在名校? ' [第一部分] ”我不會重寫再次在這裡我建議讀通過它向熟悉自己同分的辯論和爭議的焦點。 […] [ … … ]
Li’s playing the world’s smallest violin « AdmitSpit 李的公平世界上最小的小提琴« admitspit
November 21st, 2006 at 12:45 pm 2006年11月21日下午12時45分
14 14[…] I’ve been following with piqued interest for several days now about this whole Princeton vs. Li upcoming lawsuit ordeal. [ … … ]我一直在以下與piqued利益數天,現在這整個普林斯頓與李即將到來的訴訟折磨。 Fellow blogger, Sam Jackson, provides a great, slightly-lengthy recap of the issue at hand in his post titled, “WSJ asks: ‘Is Admissions Bar Higher for Asians At Elite Schools?’ [part 1]” which I will not rewrite again here; I do recommend reading through it to familiarize yourself with the debate and points of contention.研究員的Blogger ,山姆傑克遜,提供了一個很大的,稍-冗長的扼要重述的問題,另一方面在他的後名為“華爾街日報問道: '是招生酒吧較高,亞洲人在名校? ' [第一部分] ”我不會重寫再次在這裡我建議讀通過它向熟悉自己同分的辯論和爭議的焦點。 […] [ … … ]
Carolyn 卡羅林
December 3rd, 2006 at 11:58 am 2006年12月3日在上午11時58分
15 15Great discussion here.這裡的大討論。 I have a question that hopefully someone can answer.我有一個問題,說希望有人能回答。 What exactly is meant by merit based admissions?究竟是什麼意思,值得基於招生? Does this mean that only test scores are to be considered?這是否意味著,只有考試分數是要考慮的? What other criteria for college admission could/should be considered for merit based admission?什麼其他的標準,大學入學可/應考慮優異基於入學?
Sandy 沙質
December 3rd, 2006 at 1:20 pm 2006年12月3日在下午1時20分
16 16Carolyn asks, “what is merit based admission?”卡洛琳問, “什麼是值得基於入學” ?
Response: Ideally, merit based admission would occur when an applicant submits the same college application, essays and transcripts but has no indication as to race.回應:理想的,值得基於入學時,會出現一個申請人提交同一學院的應用,散文和謄本,但沒有跡象顯示,如基於種族。 They would solely note gender and social security number.他們將只注意性別和社會安全號碼。 Thus, there would be no picture, name, or racial information or even an interview.因此,不會有任何圖片,姓名,或種族的資料,或什至面試。 Thus, colleges can be as holistic as they wish with this information.因此,高校可作為整體,因為他們希望與這方面的資料。
I do admit that there may be some exceptions to this.我承認可能有一些例外。 For example, if a student is an athlete trying to get in under an athletic scholarship, the coach of the applicable sport would have to see and interview the student.例如,如果一個學生是一個運動員,試圖在獲得下一個體育獎學金,教練所適用的體育會看到和面試學生。
Legacies would be a special case.遺產將是一個特殊的案例。 I do understand the need for private schools to raise donations for schools.我也明白需要為私立學校提高,為學校捐款。 Having some legacy admits might be beneficial.有一些遺留坦承,可能是有益的。 Thus, there should be an option for a student to note whether they are a legacy or not, which would also result in disclosing their name.因此,應該有一個選項,一名學生注意他們是否遺留或不,這也將導致在披露他們的姓名。
Joseph noted that I am being hypocritical in valuing gender diversity over that of other diversity.約瑟夫指出,我正在虛偽在估價性別多樣性較其他多樣性。 I think not.我想不是。 Having a balance in gender does, in my opinion, greatly aid in the educational process since it has been shown that females learn differently than their male counterparts.有一個平衡的性別是否在我看來,大大的援助,在教育過程中,因為它已經表明,女性有不同的學習比男性同行。 In addition, students have been shown to be much happier and thus provide greater college retention if there is a gender- balanced campus.此外,學生已表明要幸福得多,從而提供更大的大學生保留,如果有一個性別平衡的校園。 Likewise, schools that have very few makes or females tend to have unhappier students (Check out the RIT forums under同樣地,學校,很少有製造或女性往往有unhappier學生(請參閱rit論壇下 http://www.studentsreview.com ) )
I can’t say the same for racial diversity.我不能說同樣的種族多樣性。 In fact, in mosst cases where racial diversity is highly encourage in admission ( such as in Syracuse University), the main complaint is that the races don’t mix.事實上,在mosst的情況下,種族多樣性是非常鼓勵在入院時(如在錫拉丘茲大學) ,主要投訴的是,比賽不要混淆。 Kids tend to associate with others of like-kind races, which seems to defeat the purpose of racial diversity in college admission.孩子們往往聯想到與他人一樣,實物比賽,這似乎打敗的目的,種族多樣性的大學入學。
Carolyn 卡羅林
December 4th, 2006 at 12:31 pm 2006年12月4日在下午12時31分
17 17Hi Sandy,喜沙質,
Thanks for your timely response.感謝您及時的反應。 Sandy I totally disagree with your position that it is ok to consider gender in college admissions but not race.沙質我完全不同意你所在的位置,這是確定考慮到性別,在大學招生,而不是軍備競賽。 Race, socioeconomics, religious affiliation, politics, gender, community involvement, character, etc all play an important role in providing balance to the college experience as well as enhancing it, and should be considered.種族, socioeconomics ,宗教,政治,性別,社區參與,性格等各方面發揮重要作用,提供平衡學院的經驗,以及加強它,並應予以考慮。 To only focus on gender is being bias.只注重性別現正偏見。
Promoting racial diversity should not be dismissed simply because some “studies” suggest that students of different races do not mix.促進種族多樣性不應被解僱,只是因為一些“研究”表明,學生,不同種族,不要混淆。 Where as it is human nature to want to be with people you are familiar with or comfortable with, it has been my experience that people of different races will and do interact with each other when a common bond is established.那裡,因為這是人性要與人您熟悉或舒服,但已根據我的經驗認為,不同種族人士的意志和做的互動與對方當一個共同的紐帶,是既定的。 This will not happen if they are not given an opportunity to interact either within the classroom or outside of it.這將不會發生,如果他們沒有獲得機會互動,無論是課堂上或以外。
Ilive in a small town community that has excellent schools. ilive在一個小城鎮社會具有優良的學校。 My community is predominently white, and I am African American.我的社區是predominently白色,和我的非裔美國人。 I have two children who have gone through the school system.我有兩個孩子誰經過的學校制度。 One has already graduated and the other is a Senior.一人已畢業,和其他是一名資深。 Yes, in general even in high school, there is less mixing of the races.是的,在一般情況,即使在高中,有少的混合比賽。 However the races do interact.不過比賽做互動。 Both my children have friends of different races, and they have developed an awareness and appreciation for people of other races, lifestyles, viewpoints, etc. I think it is unwise to only look at gender and test scores, and not consider other factors such race in promoting diversity.無論我的孩子有很多朋友,不同種族,他們已研製出一種認識和欣賞的人其他種族,生活方式,觀點等我覺得這是不明智的,只有看看性別和考試成績,而不是考慮其他因素,例如種族在提倡多樣化。
A school could end up overlooking an applicant who could greatly impact the school and the community.一所學校最終可能忽略了一個申請人誰可以大大的影響,學校和社區。 A prime example of this Cupcake Brown.一個主要的例子,這cupcake布朗。 Cupcake Brown is a high profile San Francisco Attorney who recently wrote a biography titled “A Piece of Cake”. cupcake布朗是一個高姿態舊金山律政司誰最近寫傳記,名為“一塊蛋糕” 。 This is a must read.這是一個必須閱讀。 It is an inspiring story of how Cupcake Brown went from being a prostitute, drug addict and gang member to becoming a highly sought after attorney for one of the most prestigious law firms in the country.這是一個鼓舞人心的故事,如何cupcake布朗到從一個妓女,吸毒者和幫派成員,成為一個高度要求後,律師之一,最有聲望的律師事務所在該國。 When she applied for law school, her test scores barely made the cut off to even be considered for any law school.當她申請法學院,她的考試成績勉強作出切斷,以,甚至可以考慮為任何法律學校。 Yet, Cupcake ended up graduating at the top of her class and was given the most prestigious award by her law school when she graduated.然而, cupcake結束了畢業,在上方的班上,並給出了最有聲望的獎項是由她的法學院當她畢業。 Most law schools turned Cupcake down, and only one accepted her.最法學院拒絕cupcake下來,而其中只有接受了她。 Had the school that accepted her only looked at her test scores, and not considered the “whole” person, she probably would have not been accepted.有學校接受了她只看過她的考試成績,並沒有考慮到“整體”的人,她可能就不會被接受。
One final thing, I value the fact that we are having this discussion. 1最後一件事,我價值的事實,即我們是有這個討論。 People of different races and backgrounds bring different viewpoints to this discussion.不同種族人士及背景,使不同的觀點,這一討論。 I doubt if this would happen if we all were of the same race and background.我懷疑如果這會發生,如果我們所有的人同一種族和背景。
Sandy 沙質
December 4th, 2006 at 4:05 pm 2006年12月4日在下午4時05分
18 18Carolyn and Sam, do you think that only African Americans have faced discrimination in this country or in the world?卡洛琳和SAM ,你是否認為只有非裔美國人所面臨的歧視,在這個國家,或在世界上呢?
Again, I don’t see why skin color should be given any preference.再次,我不明白為什麼皮膚顏色應給予任何優惠。 If a kid comes from a successful, wealthy household, why should that kid be given any preference solely because of skin color.如果一個孩子來自一個成功的,富裕的家庭,為什麼要這孩子獲得任何偏好,純粹是因為皮膚顏色。 It makes no sense!它是沒有意義的!
If, however, you were to argue that economic diversity is needed for colleges, I could buy into that.但是,如果你認為經濟多樣性是需要的高校,我可以購買到這一點。 I certainly can see the need for a “leg up” for kids from households that are economically deprived REGARDLESS OF RACE, CREED, or RELIGION.當然,我可以看到,需要有一個“站起來”為孩子的家庭在經濟上被剝奪,不論種族,信仰,或宗教。 I really don’t understand why economic circumstances aren’t much higher in the piority list among colleges other than knowing that it might require more scholarships.我真不明白,為什麼經濟情況並不高得多,在piority名單,其中高校以外的其他明知它可能需要更多的獎學金。
Sam Jackson 山姆傑克遜
December 4th, 2006 at 5:18 pm 2006年12月4日在下午5時18分
19 19Economic circumstance is actually one of the top goals of the traditionally “hyper elite” schools these days.經濟的情況下,其實是最關心的問題之一的目標,傳統的“超級精英”學校,這些天來。 Do you mean doing something besides spending lots of money on financial aid for low income families (eg, ‘don’t pay at all if you make less than 50,000)?你的意思做一些除了每天花大量的金錢的財政援助,為低收入家庭(例如, '不支付所有如果您作出不少於5.0萬) ? In terms of low-income recruitment etc?在條款低收入招聘等? It’sa very hot sort of diversity that well-to-do schools are definitely looking for more and more.這是非常炎熱的排序的多樣性,以及向學校這樣做,肯定是尋找更多的。
Carolyn 卡羅林
December 4th, 2006 at 10:13 pm 2006年12月4日在下午10時13分
20 20Sandy,沙地,
No I do not think that African Americans are the only race that has been discriminated against and I never said so.沒有我不認為這是非裔美國人是唯一的種族已歧視和我從來沒有這樣說。 When I say that race is one of many characteristics that should be considered, it is not just for African Americans, but other races as well, including Whites.當我說那場比賽是其中的許多特點,應該加以考慮,這不僅是為非裔美國人,但其他種族以及,包括白人。 Your race is part of who you are, and it often determines how others respond to you,good or bad.你的種族的一部分,你是誰,它往往決定了別人如何回應你,好還是壞。 People in general are not comfortable discussing race.一般人不喜歡討論的軍備競賽。 We often prefer to ignore the elephant in the room.我們常常寧願忽視的大象在房間內。 Until we’re able to have frank and honest discussions about race, we will continue to pretend we live in a color blind society when in fact we do not.直到我們能有坦誠的討論,種族,我們將繼續假裝我們生活在一個彩色的盲社會時,其實我們不。
It is easy to pretend that race does not or should not matter, or to simply discount it if you’ve never had to deal with race issues on a personal level on a regular basis.這是很容易假裝種族並不或不應該的事,或乾脆折扣,如果您以前從來沒有遇到過處理種族問題就在個人層面上定期的基礎上。 Being a particular race could mean being given special privileges, perks if you will.正在某一種族可能意味著被給予特別的特權,福利,如果您的意願。 Or your race could prove to be a disadvantage but no one wants to talk about it.或您的種族的人也可以證明是一種劣勢,但沒有人願意談論它。
I see diversity as a good thing.我看到多樣性,作為一件好事。 I’m sorry that you seem to feel that colleges that strive to increase diversity is shoving it down your throat.我很抱歉,您似乎認為,學院努力增加多樣性是shoving下來,您的咽喉。 The wonderful thing about having so many different colleges to chose from is that students and parents who are fed up with diversity can chose a college that seeks to have a homogeneous student body.奇妙的事,大約有這麼多不同的高校選擇是由學生和家長誰是厭倦了多樣性,可以選擇學院,旨在有一個均勻的學生團體。 I think this is perfectly ok.我認為這是完全確定。 You should chose a college where you best fit in. My daughter is in the process of applying to a variety of schools.你應該選擇一個大學生,您最適合英寸我的女兒是在這個過程中運用了各種學校。 Ultimately the school she choses will most definitely have a diverse student population because it is something she values and appreciates.最終學校,她choses將最肯定有一個不同的學生人口,因為這是她的價值觀和讚賞。
Sandy 沙質
December 4th, 2006 at 11:12 pm 2006年12月4日在下午11時12分
21 21In Response to Carolyn who notes,”Your race is part of who you are, and it often determines how others respond to you,good or bad”
Response: Yes, and no. In my travels, I have found that most people have preconceptions. Moreover, like it or not, people tend to associate, respect and like others of similar looks and mindset UNTIL they get to know the other person.
Haven’t you ever met someone that you had formed some prior opinion of, yet, once you got to talk and know that person, you belief system changed about them, either positively or negatively? It certainly has occured to me many times.
If I like someone or if that person says something that impresses me, my whole reaction towards them changes regardless of any preconceived beliefs and certainly regardless of race, creed, or religion or gender. I truly believe that others think the same way as I.
Moreover, I never, ever said that I want my kids to attend a homogenious college. I just want a college that doesn’t discriminate based on racial profiling. In fact, I don’t want to see racial profiling in society at all, with perhaps the sole exception of airport screeners looking for mideast terrorists. LOL
As for discrimination, I am Jewish. You don’t think that we Jews haven’t face discrimination as long as African Americans or even longer in the world? Moreover, I can assure you of one thing: it hasn’t stopped for us. It just is more subtle than that of discrimination against African Americans. Yet, you will NEVER hear any Jew say, “Society or the world owes us because of all the horrible things that have occured to Jews in the past.”Jews simply want the world to remember what happened so that it doesn’t happen to anyone or any race again.
As with Asians, we try very hard in school, work, and in life to succeed. We never make excuses. At least I have never heard any from anyone that I have met or known.
Even Jews living in Germany aren’t asking for any Affirmative Action. They just want to be left alone in peace so that they can survive and thrive on their own.
As I said, I am race neutral regarding college admission. It doesn’t impact me either way. However, look at schools that tend to be more homogeneous;
Berkeley,which has the highest Asian population in the country is certainly a top notch school.
Brandeis, which has a large Jewish population is top notch.
Notre Dame, which is primarily Catholic, is considered top notch.
Howard University is considered top notch here in DC.
In fact, most of the ivys, despite their attempt at diversity, is made up mostly of rich, white folks. Even minority kids that I know at ivy schools tend to be more upper middle class. I don’t see the ivys suffering from a lack in quality.
Notice: Not one of these top schools have been hurt by a lack of diversity.
Maybe I am not being politically correct in todays world. I just believe that it is the nature of the person that should matter and not their race ever! If they have achieved success despite economic or family hardship then they should be given, in my opinion, a “leg up.” However, not because they are black, white, green or tuti-fruity, but because they are deserving.
Carolyn
December 5th, 2006 at 11:50 am
22Sandy,
It would be great if all people (others) like you were open minded enough to judge people by their deeds and actions and not outward appearance. But in the real world this is not the case. Do you think unattractive overweight people are treated differently from skinny attractive people? I suggest you research studies that have been done around this very subject. I am baffled that you would think that everyone thinks as you do. Who are you including in this “others”? Who are you leaving out?
I have some very close Jewish friends, and they certainly do not see the world as you do. So be careful about saying what Jewish people will or will not do. How can you speak for all Jewish people?
I am also wondering if you think that All African Americans want something for nothing, feels the world owes them something and are not willing to work hard to achieve their goals. And speaking of Ivys, since diversity is important to me and my family, I make it a point to check out the racial makeup of various colleges. I’ve noticed that many of the top schools such as the Ivy League and Stanford have the highest percentage of African Americans when compared to lesser quality schools.
Last but not least, I’m wondering if you think there is such a thing as “the good old boy network”. Does this not exist in both business and social institutions? Although I disagree with some of your comments, I sincerely appreciate your honest answers and the fact that you are taking the time to respond.
Sandy
December 5th, 2006 at 6:47 pm
23Carolyn, let me address each issue that you noted
First, yes, skinny people and good looking people get treated differently than ugly or fat people. Life is what it is. However,
I have found that talent and ability eventually trumps looks.
I have a sister in law that is way overweight and certainly would not be good looking even if she were thin as a rail. However, once people meet her, they can’t help liking and respecting her. She is an invited speaker each year to national software conventions and people love her. Again, actions trump looks.
Yes not all Jews think as I . What I said, however, is that every jew that I met or know thought as I did. I do know that this doesn’t represent every Jew in the world.
Yes, stereotyping is dangerous. I can only speak from the data set of my experience.
Finally, I do believe that there is such a thing as “the good ole boy network.” People tend to associate with those that have similar views, beliefs etc. However, most small business people that I have met, and I have met hundreds of thousands in my lectures, usually try to get the best people working for them. Small business does focus on profit and can’t afford to talk lessor talent due to discimination. With that said, I know that discrimination exists even among small business people, but it is, in my opinion, a lessor problem than found in bigger companies.
Finally, life is not fair. People are given varying looks, People are given varying upbringing and talents, and abilities etc. We simply have to make do with the best that we can and be as flexible as possible in life.
DNA testing: A Little Affirmative Action talk for Christmas | the Sam Jackson College Experience
December 25th, 2007 at 4:38 pm
24 24[…] don’t necessarily want to spark an affirmative action debate here as happened last year on the blog with my writings on Jian Li. What I do find interesting are the questions posed by […]
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